How to get water pump out

pippo

Member
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Florida
People,

I did this 8 years ago, but cant remember how in the wortld I ubscrewed ther 3 6mm hex bolts to remove water pump!! Wow- what an ordeal!

I am using an L shaped allen wrench. Should I use a straight 6mm attached to a socket, driven by a ratchet? If so, seems like the car frame is in the way. I managed to unscrew the one at 6 oclock position, but the impossible ones are the 2 and 10 oclock ones.

Thanks.
 

pippo

Member
78
1
8
Florida
I am assuming that the camshaft sprocket AND rear timing belt covers (black plastic) should not be necessary to be removed, as I doubt there is any way unless timing belt itself is removed first. And since when one install a timing belt and tensions it correctly by rotating the water pump, the timing belt AND rear cover must be on already, then water pump gets tensioned to the correct tension.

That is why I am trying to unscrew the 3 water pump bolts first, as no way one can remover the covers. What an ordeal.

How did I do this before???
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pippo

Member
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1
8
Florida
Got the timing belt our which helped me remove the 2:00 position bolt. The 10:00 position bolt is impossible. I can get an L shape allen wrench in there but no way I can then get a grip on it to crack it with my hand.

Rear cover is still on.
 

pippo

Member
78
1
8
Florida
Doug, (or anyone else), can you take a look at thre 1st video, around 2:05 to about 2:20 into the film, it shows the crankshaft marks lining up at 6:00 position. Even though the video is for a 92 sunbird, would that mark apply also to my 87? Because I noticed the mark is at 7:00 position when I removed timing belt!

Maybe thats why Ive had a rough running engine for 17 years??!!
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92 Sunbird LE

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I know for a fact that the marks don't line up perfectly when the belt is installed. Can't remember which one is off....( Top or bottom) been a while since I did my belt... 2013 when I installed the used trans I brought when I moved here. Sorry can't help more...Doug in P.R.:)
 

pippo

Member
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Florida
did you have the engine at #1 TDC when you noticed the mark at 7:00?
Thanks, Mel, but for that I have to remove plug, and even not sure how to accurately determine. Dont you have to turn crankshaft for that Left /then right? Then how can you see inside cylinder? I heard you can put in a pencil and see when it stops/reaches highest point, but isnt that tricky?

Why would GM cut in those marks if they werent supposed to match up (on crank, on video)?
 

melsg5

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you stated the bottom mark was at 7:00 where was the top mark, 12:00?
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pippo

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Florida
you stated the bottom mark was at 7:00 where was the top mark, 12:00?
Sorry for delay, Mel, but yes, the "top mark" is the cam sprocket. That has to be 12:00, per specifications, and according to manual. There is a very clear indicator/pointer for that.

But I didnt really mean that the "bottom mark" was at 7, I meant that the bottom pointer/mark at 6, but the crankshaft is at 7. I will get a youtube video which might help explain.......
 

melsg5

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Sorry for delay, Mel, but yes, the "top mark" is the cam sprocket. That has to be 12:00, per specifications, and according to manual. There is a very clear indicator/pointer for that.

But I didnt really mean that the "bottom mark" was at 7, I meant that the bottom pointer/mark at 6, but the crankshaft is at 7. I will get a youtube video which might help explain.......
I know what the video shows but I still dont understand where your marks are located. Your sentence above seems to contradict itself,
" I meant that the bottom pointer/mark at 6, but the crankshaft is at 7." The bottom mark is the crankshaft. Please clearly state where the top camshaft mark is and where the bottom crankshaft mark is on your car. If the camshaft is not at 12:00 or the crankshaft is not at 6:00, with the belt removed turn them so they line up correctly. Please be aware that due to the different number of revolutions of the crankshaft versus the camshaft to fire all cylinders you can also have the camshaft showing 6:00 and the crankshaft showing 6:00. There are two complete rotations of the crankshaft per one complete rotation of the camshaft to fire all cylinders.
 

Phil Number 3

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Oklahoma
One of the anger points for me is the plastic timing belt cover must be installed to check the timing between crank and cam. That took several attempts to get it correct.
However, before changing the water pump, the engine would develop a miss when accelerating every few second and only when warm. Re timing the cam/crank cleared that up after over a year of replacing everything I thought COULD be the problem including the vacuum sensor in the air filter housing, ignition module, injector, plugs, plug wires, rotor and distributor cap, etc.
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pippo

Member
78
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8
Florida
I know for a fact that the marks don't line up perfectly when the belt is installed. Can't remember which one is off....( Top or bottom) been a while since I did my belt... 2013 when I installed the used trans I brought when I moved here. Sorry can't help more...Doug in P.R.:)
Thanks, Doug, good to know just the same. I will be aware of that when I install belt......
 

pippo

Member
78
1
8
Florida
I know what the video shows but I still dont understand where your marks are located. Your sentence above seems to contradict itself,
" I meant that the bottom pointer/mark at 6, but the crankshaft is at 7." The bottom mark is the crankshaft. Please clearly state where the top camshaft mark is and where the bottom crankshaft mark is on your car. If the camshaft is not at 12:00 or the crankshaft is not at 6:00, with the belt removed turn them so they line up correctly. Please be aware that due to the different number of revolutions of the crankshaft versus the camshaft to fire all cylinders you can also have the camshaft showing 6:00 and the crankshaft showing 6:00. There are two complete rotations of the crankshaft per one complete rotation of the camshaft to fire all cylinders.
Thanks, Mel. I can understand why it sounds contradictory. Per your request to state clearly camshaft mark:

1) Cam SPROCKET mark (notch) points at 12:00 to rear cover plastic pointer.
2) Crankshaft mark (milled in U shaped mark on crank sprocket) is on crank, and currently has rotated to 7:00 position, as it was left there after removing timing belt.
3) That mark has to point to line up with matching milled U shaped point on bottom of engine, just above oil pan (see video, as I provided).

You say "the bottom mark is the crankshaft". No. The bottom mark(pointer) is on the ENGINE, not the flange of the crank sprocket. By "crank sprocket" I mean basically, the crank itself, as it is attached to a sprocket to receive timing belt teeth.

It is clear on that video. Please view it if you havent as it will be clear as day. Again, at about 2:05-2:20 into the video.

I am trying to put up a picture here but having difficulty. That picture will show 7:00 crank, and 6:00 pointer on engine.

Thanks for your continued patience with my challenging project.
 

pippo

Member
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8
Florida
One of the anger points for me is the plastic timing belt cover must be installed to check the timing between crank and cam.
How is that, Phil? Crank and cam are, at least on my 1987 GT , 12:00 and 6:00. How would plastic cover matter? I am puzzled. Is there another type of pointer on those plastic covers of which I should be aware?

Rear or front plastic cover? Please explain as this could help.
 

melsg5

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The video clearly shows a mark on the crankshaft sprocket at 6:00 when the camshaft sprocket is at 12:00.
 
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