02 Grand Am stalls, restarts

oldhippie

oldhippie

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Last couple of months after driving more than 20 minutes, my Grand Am will stumble when trying to start then will not start. Let it sit for 15 mins or so and she'll fire up OK.
This last time it stalled out just as I was getting to a stop. Had buzzing from under dash and all lights lite up on dash. Tried to restart, still had some buzzing but no fuel pump operation. Tried it again a few times over 5 minutes, and each time sick sounding buzz and no fuel pump operation, engine would turn over though.

Just for something to do, I checked the fuses. Fuel pump fuse looked good but I swapped it with the park lights anyway. By this time 15 minutes had gone by. When I turned the key to Run, at first nothing but then a hint of fuel pump operation. So turned off then back to Run, full fuel pump operation and car started OK. Ran great all the way home.
Checked for codes with my Innova OBDII reader and found none.

I'd changed the ignition lock cylinder a few months ago since old cylinder and key were worn out causing numerous security and body control module problems. About 60k miles (4 yrs ago) ago I'd changed the crank position sensor but when that went the fuel pump worked, just no spark because no signal. Car has over 145k miles and has the 2.2L 4cyl w/ 5-spd.

Any thoughts? I'd say it's heat related (just not ambient temp as we're at below freezing here). Either crank position sensor, ignition module or fuel pump.
 
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I would consider the fuel pump relay or the pump itself considering the miles on the vehicle.
 
melsg5 said:
I would consider the fuel pump relay or the pump itself considering the miles on the vehicle.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I think I'll just replace each of them. My youngest daughter wants the car so spending a little extra is cheap insurance and doing it myself makes it cheaper. I just hope none of the problems are associated with the ECM.
 
Checking into this more. After several starts and stops and getting the car up to temp I got the car to fail to start (cranks over fine but no firing) I checked the voltage at the underhood power dist.
With 12.4v at the battery, I was only seeing 10v or lower at the fuse for pump. Same for other fuses that are after the ignition switch. Also the signal from the PCM to the fuel pump relay was showing 10v or lower. Voltage to the PCM Batt fuse was still 12.4v.
Have an intermittent ground somewhere. Taking the ignition switch off next to test it more.
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Pulled the ignition switch. My Haynes manual shows where I should have continuity but I don't think it covers for my '02.

The switch has two electrical connectors on bottom. One side I'll call C1 has 5 terminals marked A, B, C, D, and E. Second I`ll call C2 has 4 terminals marked A, B, C, and E.

In RUN I have continuity from C1-A to C2-C, C1-A to C2-B, C1-C to C2-A, C1-E to C2-A, C1-D to C2-E, AND C2-B to C2-C. The Haynes manual lists all those except for the C1-D to C2-E and C2-B to C2-C.

Anyone happen to know the proper list for which terminals I should have continuity in when in RUN...

I`m really starting to think my problem is in the ECM or BCM. Possibly moisture related..
 
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After a discussion with my dealers' shop foreman: the fuel pump gets it power directly through the ignition switch and the relay operation is through the PCM.

They've had problems with the ignition switches where, over time, carbon builds up inside the switch. The switch heats up as power is flowing and eventually shorts out causing the low voltage readings I received at the fuse side of the relay. Since the PCM gets it's power through the ignition switch for sending the signal to the fuel pump relay, that would also see the low voltage. When the switch cools down the voltage readings all return to normal.

So I guess I'll be changing the ignition switch and see how that goes. I'll also have to check other connections as well just in case there is any problems with them as well.
 
Pulled the ignition switch apart. Contacts were carboned up. Cleaned them, lubed w/dielectric grease and reinstalled. Car started OK and, after running for 10 mins, did a restart and it worked OK so far, but before this it was failing after 15 mins of running. Next week I'll take it for a longer run and see if it's still good.
Took some pics of the switch while it was apart after I'd cleaned the contacts. I'll try and post them sometime.
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Zimgxp said:
Hope you got it fixed.
Click to expand...

Took it for a 1/2 hr run last night with a couple of start stops after and no problems. Brought it to work today and it restarted OK after sitting for a few minutes. The fuel pump noise does not sound as 'labored' as it did prior to cleaning the ignition switch.

So far, so good.:)

Monday: Spoke too soon. Car wouldn't crank this morning. Had an issue leaving work last night where I'd pushed the clutch in and it didn't crank. Repositioned and shoved my clutch pedal deep into the floor and it started. But this morning, 1st try, nothing. Moved the floor mat and pushed the pedal hard into the carpet and still nothing. No time to play with it so hoped in the truck. I'll be checking the switch on the clutch pedal tomorrow and checking the ignition switch.

It's gremlins I tell ya. Those blasted gremlins. lol.
 
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oldhippie said:
Monday: Spoke too soon. Car wouldn't crank this morning. Had an issue leaving work last night where I'd pushed the clutch in and it didn't crank. Repositioned and shoved my clutch pedal deep into the floor and it started. But this morning, 1st try, nothing. Moved the floor mat and pushed the pedal hard into the carpet and still nothing. No time to play with it so hoped in the truck. I'll be checking the switch on the clutch pedal tomorrow and checking the ignition switch.

It's gremlins I tell ya. Those blasted gremlins. lol.
Click to expand...

Looks like the ignition switch is just too worn out. Checked my clutch switch and it was good. When I turned the key back and forth from Run to Start it would catch once in awhile. I should have a new switch coming in tomorrow.
 
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