'66 Lemans Excessive play in Steering

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algtrader

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Dear forum,

My '66 Lemans has a lot of play when steering. Has anyone here had this problem?

I need some guidance on how to troubleshoot this problem methodically, since my plan is to fix it DIY.

Because the car is old, of course it was easy for the mechanic to tell me we need to rebuild the entire front end - but that production was going to cost $3,500.00! It included replacing the steering box, rag joint, upper and lower control arm bushings, idler arms, ball joints, center link, tie rods, sway bar bushings and links.

Is this job worth that price or is it doable for a lot less? I was hoping to get some guidance on which parts to check first to eliminate most of the play and then over time address the remaining items eventually.

Thank you
 
there is a difference between play in the steering which you would feel while standing still versus the car wandering on the road which can be caused by worn bushings in the suspension. So which case is it?
You can also adjust the play in the steering box which probably has never been done before outright replacing it.
 
melsg5 said:
there is a difference between play in the steering which you would feel while standing still versus the car wandering on the road which can be caused by worn bushings in the suspension. So which case is it?
You can also adjust the play in the steering box which probably has never been done before outright replacing it.
Click to expand...

Hi melsg5:

It is the latter. While driving the car, it handles like a boat, i.e., to keep the boat going in a straight line you will have to turn the steering wheel to compensate. This is the best analogy I can think of.....
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We need a lot more information to help you out, how many miles are on the car?
This can tell us if front end parts are probably worn out
Does it have Radial or Bias Ply Tires?
The original Bias Ply tires tend to make the car wander on road surfaces, if the pavement is rutted it makes the problem worse
Power or Manual Steering?
The Manual Steering systems in the 60's were very slow and required many rotations of the steering wheel to complete turns. This makes them feel very "loose" when driving them compared to modern cars. This was to reduce the amount of effert required to turn the steering wheel with a heavy engine located over the front axle. While the power steering systems were better, they still do not feel like a modern system
It could just need a front end alignment and have them add as much positive Camber as they can to help the car track straighter. But if parts are worn they will not do the Alignment until they are replaced.
Get another opinion on the condition of the steering components. The rubber bushings may or may not be worn, also the tie rods and ball joints. If the Shop says tells you they are worn have them show you what they found. If the complete front end needs work, meaning all the control arm bushings (top and bottom) need replacing, the tie rods, ball joints, center link, idler arm and pitman arm are all worn then that is a lot of work. Parts alone can be $400-$800 add front springs for another $200 and around $1500 in Labor to do all the work. Now add a steering Box at $300-$500, and a rag joint at $25 and you are getting close to the $3500 estimate, now add the front end alignment and you are almost there.
If you can do some of the work yourself it will save a lot of labor costs. And it is a good learning experience if you have someone with experience to help you. But changing the control arm bushings can be dangerous at it requires removing the front coil springs and that should be done only by someone with experience, of a licenced shop.
 
cammerjeff said:
We need a lot more information to help you out, how many miles are on the car?
This can tell us if front end parts are probably worn out
Does it have Radial or Bias Ply Tires?
The original Bias Ply tires tend to make the car wander on road surfaces, if the pavement is rutted it makes the problem worse
Power or Manual Steering?
The Manual Steering systems in the 60's were very slow and required many rotations of the steering wheel to complete turns. This makes them feel very "loose" when driving them compared to modern cars. This was to reduce the amount of effert required to turn the steering wheel with a heavy engine located over the front axle. While the power steering systems were better, they still do not feel like a modern system
It could just need a front end alignment and have them add as much positive Camber as they can to help the car track straighter. But if parts are worn they will not do the Alignment until they are replaced.
Get another opinion on the condition of the steering components. The rubber bushings may or may not be worn, also the tie rods and ball joints. If the Shop says tells you they are worn have them show you what they found. If the complete front end needs work, meaning all the control arm bushings (top and bottom) need replacing, the tie rods, ball joints, center link, idler arm and pitman arm are all worn then that is a lot of work. Parts alone can be $400-$800 add front springs for another $200 and around $1500 in Labor to do all the work. Now add a steering Box at $300-$500, and a rag joint at $25 and you are getting close to the $3500 estimate, now add the front end alignment and you are almost there.
If you can do some of the work yourself it will save a lot of labor costs. And it is a good learning experience if you have someone with experience to help you. But changing the control arm bushings can be dangerous at it requires removing the front coil springs and that should be done only by someone with experience, of a licenced shop.
Click to expand...

Hi cammerjeff,

Thanks!

The car has 87K miles, Uniroyal Tiger Paw tires and power steering.

Of the possible repair items listed above, which ones can I do myself? The control arm bushings are out of the question, needs two people and I need to get the bushings pressed, etc.
 
If you have any Mechanical aptitude Tie Rod Ends, idler arm, Rag Joint, & power steering Box should all be doable with basic tools.
If you are more experienced Ball Joints can be done but require a special Press to remove and replace. But I would not recommend it unless you can work with someone who has done Ball joints before. Very easy to hurt yourself or the car if you are not careful. Remember that you will need to have an alignment done after any parts are replaced, with the exeption of the rag joint or steering box.
Are the Tiger paws on your car the newer Radial version or the old Bias Ply version? If they are Radials the part number should have an R in Something like P195/75R14 if it is something like P195/7514 they are bias ply tires and should be replaced IMO, any idea how old the tires are?
 
cammerjeff said:
If you have any Mechanical aptitude Tie Rod Ends, idler arm, Rag Joint, & power steering Box should all be doable with basic tools.
If you are more experienced Ball Joints can be done but require a special Press to remove and replace. But I would not recommend it unless you can work with someone who has done Ball joints before. Very easy to hurt yourself or the car if you are not careful. Remember that you will need to have an alignment done after any parts are replaced, with the exeption of the rag joint or steering box.
Are the Tiger paws on your car the newer Radial version or the old Bias Ply version? If they are Radials the part number should have an R in Something like P195/75R14 if it is something like P195/7514 they are bias ply tires and should be replaced IMO, any idea how old the tires are?
Click to expand...

Hi cammerjeff

Thank you for helping me confirm. Yes, I was planning to do just the Tie Rod Ends, idler arm, Rag Joint, & power steering Box. Everything else I will stay away from.

The tires are new. Uniroyal Tiger Paws 205/65 R15 Radial Tubeless.

Sincerely

Al
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Selecting a steering box

Hello,

I am planning to replace the steering box of my '66 Lemans. Which one should I get? There are so many selections from Ames, OPGI and Summit Racing. And they vary in price and options. Would you get an original one or the ones which are quick ratio? (Quick ratio is the one where it does not require a lot of turns on the steering wheel to turn the car, the feel is more responsive).
Which brands would you consider?

Thank you
 
have you tried adjusting your current box? If you really want to replace it the quick ratio would be the way to go. Looking at Ames your choice is either rebuilt or a new Delphi at considerably more cost. So it depends on your budget.
 
Steering Box

I am ok with buying NOS or reproduction steering box. No problem. Does anyone here have a recommendation on which brand of steering box to purchase?

There are so many out there. Like melsg5 says, I want to go with a quick ratio to get an upgrade on steering (might as well).

Manufacturers are AGP, Lares, etc. And they are all over $350.00 excluding the rag joint. Is it easy to replace the steering box? Looking at the shop manual, it appears you drain the power steering fluid, detach the pitman arm and then replace the steering box. Looks easier than it seems, anyone done this before?

Thank you

Al G
'66 Lemans
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The steps you mention are correct, but they can sometimes be harder to do than it sounds. The Pitman arm is a interference fit and requires a puller to remove (almost always requires some heat to be applied as well)
Then the 3 long bolts holding the box to the frame rail are usually rusted into the old box. I would start by spraying penetrating oil on the ends of the bolts that stick out of the old steering box. (and the rag joint hardware, and power steering hard lines) Most times on a 40 year old car you end up breaking the Power steering pressure line off in the steering box when you remove it.
Don't be surprised if you have to get new lines, and expect to have to reuse the old rag joint hardware with the new rag joint. So start soaking all the hardware at least 1 week before you plan on doing the job. Expect to have to use heat to break all the hardware loose. Expect the wrenches to slip and bang your knuckles. And hopefully non of that will happen!
 
have band-aides and antibacterial close by
 
cammerjeff said:
The steps you mention are correct, but they can sometimes be harder to do than it sounds. The Pitman arm is a interference fit and requires a puller to remove (almost always requires some heat to be applied as well)
Then the 3 long bolts holding the box to the frame rail are usually rusted into the old box. I would start by spraying penetrating oil on the ends of the bolts that stick out of the old steering box. (and the rag joint hardware, and power steering hard lines) Most times on a 40 year old car you end up breaking the Power steering pressure line off in the steering box when you remove it.
Don't be surprised if you have to get new lines, and expect to have to reuse the old rag joint hardware with the new rag joint. So start soaking all the hardware at least 1 week before you plan on doing the job. Expect to have to use heat to break all the hardware loose. Expect the wrenches to slip and bang your knuckles. And hopefully non of that will happen!
Click to expand...

Thanks and yuk!! I googled interference fit = press fit. Looks like I will need to buy or rent a special fork tool to pull out the pitman arm. How long do think this will take? Is it a 2, 3 or 4 hour job? At $90 bucks an hour, this will be around $400 bucks if done professionally. What do you mean by reusing the old rag joint hardware with the new rag joint?

BTW any recommendations for which brand of steering box to buy?

Thanks
 
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