97 Grand Prix starts & runs for 35 mins/then Dies!

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pmc1

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Hello All,

I know this is long-winded, but I type just like I talk and wanted to include as many SPECIFICS as possible. If there's something else you can pick my brain with for "specifics", please do so and thanks SO much for ANY insight! :)

I just bought a '97 Grand Prix GT (with very high mileage) in November. (Yes, I'm now questioning my intelligence/sanity, but I bought this car completely on TRUSTING the family friend I bought it from . . he said the car was "mechanically fine . . . nothing needing immediate attention or repair". That's NOT the case. I got soaked real bad :( I've only been able to drive the car literally ONCE for about 35 minutes since buying it. Broke down in the middle of an intersection FIRST drive out with it and have had someone working on it since then "on the side" in the driveway to TRY and solve the issue.

I've just about "read myself crazy" with numerous "possibilities" this problem can be.

- The engine light IS on. He has a scanner and the code he gets is regarding "EGR".
- He replaced the Coil Pack believing it "might" be the solution, based on what was happening with the hood being open/closed. It was not the solution.

- We've now "TESTED" the symptoms in the driveway at least five times.
The results are EXACTLY the same EACH time (if the hood is closed).

- It starts and runs great for 35 minutes, then VERY quickly spits/sputters and dies. (If it's running WITH HOOD OPEN keeping the engine cool, it does not stall.) Unfortunately, I can't drive it with the hood open, but wish I could!

- During the 35 minutes when it IS running, the "Low Coolant" light comes on and off . . a SLOW blink (every 5 seconds or so).

- During the WON'T START mode:
a. "sounds like" it's out of gas when trying to start (but is not).
b. if I turn the key to ACC, "ALL" panel lights come on at first and most go out, but the lights which STAY LIT are: Red Temp Light, the Low Coolant light (on and off every 5 seconds), the Oil light and the Battery light.
c. At ten minutes DOWN TIME, it "almost" turns over to start, but does not. It's at approx. 30 minutes it starts again, as though nothing happened!
 
What tests have been done/can you do any? Do you have a OBD-II scanner with live data? Generally they only require basic maintenance; can you learn any of the vehicles maintenance history for said family member.

And you think it's getting hot because the dash gauge?

I know you like Grand Prix but my history as I have owned several of them is that people just beat them up and tend to not care about them. Those few that do take care of them, tend to keep them until they are wrecked or sell it to another enthusiast.

Edit: By the way, what is the mileage?
 
Thanks . . the family friend claims to know nothing about this problem happening. The live data scanner only showed an EGR code. I guess I was hoping someone else has dealt with this on here so that we are not "fishing" for answers.
 
Well my GP never shut down from an EGR code. The reason I am asking is because older gaskets are known to leak and you may be losing coolant/have an air pocket in the cooling system which is causing you car to over heat. I know a most modern cars will shut down after some temperature I'd have to check if the 97 did as well. Knowing maintenance history takes some of the guess work out.

The main thing I can think of that shuts you car down periodically and lets it start after some time is a CKP sensor. Again that's the electronic side of it that's known to go bad on 3800s.

Did you check the live scanner to see the temperature that the sensor is reporting?

Also the community and myself would need to know what tests have been done/what has been check because multiple things can cause similar issues as I showed above with overheating and with a faulty CKP sensor. Did you check to make sure there was coolant since the light is blinking at you. I would tend to believe that the car had issues before that the friend either ignored or didn't pay attention to.
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Unfortunately I'm not as well-versed to answer as the person who is actually working on my car. I'm just getting impatient with the issue and thought I would "try" this method. You are "right on" about the previous owner ignoring etc. Since learning of the shut-down issue, there have been no "tests" done, as I've been right there with the mechanic. Just the scanning for a code. He indicated the same as you: EGR would not be the likely cause. He did just fix a coolant leak. He has been checking the coolant level, which has been fine. Perhaps I will have him come on here to read your replies :)

Is the CKP sensor you mentioned also known as the crank sensor? That is what he was planning on trying next, as it appears to be a common issue.
 
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Yes; that is the crank sensor.

I don't want to throw anyone under the bus here, but more extensive testing should be done so you don't throw money at the problem like those coils.

The fuel system should be checked with a mechanical gauge (which can be rented from your local auto parts store). If this test is done properly, you will note that there is sufficient pressure (around 45psi) and that the pressure holds. (Don't quote me on the psi, I don't remember what it needs to be, I'd have to look it up. If EaOutlaw chimes in, he would direct you to buy a repair manual which would be a good idea)

The cooling system had a hole. It needs to be bled properly and it would be a good idea to pressurize the system with a special tool (again rent-able)

If fuel isn't an issue, you can check the spark side of which the ckp and coils belong. This means to see if spark is sent down to each of the cylinders. CKP sensors don't usually go bad all at once. They work for a while then die. Then they work for a while and die, eventually failing outright. CKP sensors are pretty cheap for these cars; I've seen them not throw codes at time and throw them others.

A few last points, I always use OEM or if a better design is in the aftermarket, then I get the aftermarket. For these electronic sensors, I always use ACDelco. rockauto has them at a great price. When things need to be replaced, watch out for those lower brands. I have heard nightmare stories of people using cheaper FPR (fuel pressure regulators) only to have them fail after a week or so.

On these cars, mechanical and electrical things don't typically break out right; they die rather slowly. (which is why I think the family friend ignored it or whatever - which I think you can agree with at this point.).

Edit: What is the code stored in the computer? And be sure he checks the history or stored codes.
 
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Hi, try not to get too upset, You purchased a 1997 Pontiac Grand Prix, So I am thinking you did not pay $24,000.00. probably the cost of that car when it was new.

I am guessing it has close to 200K on the odometer and everything and anything that could have been neglected was neglected.

However the good news is the Grand Prix is a great car, a comfortable car, and a car that has decent power and good looks.

With any used car purchased from a dealer, private owner, or yes a family member, the car will need to be checked out from top to bottom front to rear.

My idea of pristine car, is another persons junker, My view of well maintained may be another persons view of complete and over the top over maintained car.

So try to resist the urge to strangle any of your family members.

now that we are calmed down and ready to dig in and get your new to you Grand Prix to the point that you love it.

Lets start by giving the car some one on one quality time.

I suggest before you open your wallet and start tossing parts and or money at this car.

Lets figure out the condition of the entire car, I mean the entire car. Brakes, tires , suspension, spare tire, oil leaks, coolant leaks, battery and charging system, Ignition system, emissions system, CV joints, Fuel and air filters, wiper blades.

Go over this car with a fine tooth comb, writing down any little nick picking thing you find wrong with this car. Aside from cosmetic issues.

You will want to know exactly what it will cost to make every single mechanical and electronic part on this car function as it was intended.

If your doing the work yourself I and or we will be glad to assist you with any information or help you need to get you to where you know this car inside and out.

Since in your post you mention a possibility of overheating, I would consider this the first and most important thing to check out.

Start by checking the cooling system with a coolant pressure tester, test the cooling system and pressure cap.

Make sure the cooling system is topped of completely and bled of any air.

You will also want to know if the coolant- Antifreeze is at the correct ratio to provide adequate cooling and boiling protection. this means you have to test the coolant in the over flow tank and the radiator.

Just because the coolant in the overflow is good doesn't mean the coolant in the engine and radiator is of the same quality.

As it could have been just topped off before you purchased it.

A pressure test is a great way to insure all your hoses, head gaskets expansion plugs, radiator, water pump, ETC is in good working order or at least not leaking coolant.

Since the car is new to you and probably has 200K miles on it or more you will want to perform a compression test.

If the engine is low on compression across the board or just low on a few cylinders you want to know before you start spending your hard earned cash on this car.

Hopefully you find that the engine has great compression and doesn't need any major repairs.

While your under the hood poking around check out all the vacuum lines take note of any you find broken, dry rotted or missing verify by the label under the hood to know if your missing vacuum lines or if any have been plugged with caps.

As far as the EGR Valve yes it can cause the car to stall and not start, The EGR valve basically connects the Exhaust system to the intake to help re burn some of the un burnt fuel. so it the egr valve is stuck open at idle or all the time you will have a heck of a time starting it and keeping it running.

A EGR valve that is stuck open would be like having a massive vacuum leak.

If the original owner - family member said the check engine light was never on. and they are telling the truth it is possible, you may have drove it much differently than they did, and perhaps got your right foot to the floor a few times to test the water so to speak.

If the previous owner drove it like a very very old person a lot of carbon could have built up and been dislodged by the new driving pattern sticking the valve open. ( this is not likely but possible. and worth mentioning )

the code is for the EGR position sensor not the EGR valve necessarily the code just means the Sensor is reporting the valve is not open when it should be or not closed when it should be. or the sensor is just bad.

If I remember correctly carbon was a big problem with these EGR valves.

A miss routed vacuum line or a bad or Thermal vacuum switch could cause a issue like this.

The EGR valve code should be diagnosed and treated like it could be the cause of some if not all of your problems with the engine stalling and not starting.

Like the others have mentioned to you it may not be the cause, but it is always best to diagnose it and know for sure. then guess and go on a wild goose chase.

To diagnose it like richardgriese said I would bring up, You absolutely need a service manual, They are inexpensive and easy to find a factory manual through places like eBay second hand.

or you can just do a online subscription to alldata diy

We can help you help yourself, very rarely will anyone on any forum know the exact answer or fix to your problem.

Each and every successful and accurate repair on nearly any modern car starts by opening a service manual. and looking at factory service bulletins.

I can give you tips and advice yet if I was there helping you with your car in person I would only be as good as the information I had to work with.

So before I type too much I suggest for you to have the basics checked like mentioned earlier or do the test yourself and check over the car.

If you have blown head gaskets or bad engine for example there is not much need to get into diagnostics on a trouble code that may not be on the top of your priority list.
 
Your comments, tips, suggestions are so much appreciated!

I especially want to point out to EaOutlaw that I won't be strangling the family "friend" I bought it from :) It wasn't a family member I bought it from, it was a "friend" (?) of my brother. In summary: my BROTHER is the innocent, GOOD guy and the "friend" is the not-so-innocent BAD guy.

My BROTHER is actually the "original owner" of this car. I was WITH him when he bought it brand new on the lot in 1997 (I fell in love with his car that day). What a beauty brand new :)

Here is where I finally feed in about "knowing the history of the car". The "primary" reason I bought this car from the "friend" (without "too much fear") on the HIGH mileage IS because my brother owned this car 17 years (1997-2014) and I personally KNEW he took "fanatical" care of the car. He did put the high mileage on it, but NOTHING ever went unfixed ignored, or "not-working" on this car for 17 years. If something broke, it was fixed immediately. (One of those people who does ALL the scheduled maintenance and replaces old parts even if "not needed" right away).This car was serviced in the SAME shop for 17 years. He wouldn't allow ANYBODY except that trusted shop to touch the car.

In the end, brother had gotten his use (17 years worth) of the car and let it go to the "friend" in 2014. It really only needed "major body repairs" - not "major mechanical repairs". The "friend" took the car in 2014 and repaired the body issues.

During the "friend's" one-year ownership, I have no way of knowing the mechanical "truths". Before I bought it, I did ask him VERY SPECIFIC questions and do know (now) that he flat-out lied to those specific questions. There's no "nice way" for me to put that! He knew I loved and "wanted" this car, "saw me comin' a mile away", and took full advantage of my TRUST in his answers to the "mechanical" questions. I learned a huge lesson.

There's NO shortage of history on the car for 17 of the 18 years. However, right now the 17-year history with my brother does not seem relevant to this "stalling" issue. In other words, that was then, this is now. My brother has confirmed this stalling issue was not happening before he let the car go. HIS answers, I fully trust :) The friend "denies" that it was happening. There's a difference. Regardless . . is what it is and I learned a huge lesson!

I am expecting the "side mechanic" today to revisit the issue. I'm printing out from both of you the VERY HELPFUL suggestions & info on the TESTS, EGR, coolant system, etc. He may have done further homework on it already and he may feel like I'm stepping on his toes . . but as mentioned: I can't keep guessing and throwing needless parts into it!

Simply put, I'm trying to help him get to the solution so I can drive my "new to me" car! Thank you both again and I will be back with either good news or "test results"!
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Has your mechanic checked if there is spark to the plugs when the engine dies? The EGR issue would not stop the ignition system from working it would only cause it to stall.
 
well good luck, as melsg5 has mentioned it just needs to be diagnosed properly.
If your not doing the work just bring it to someone you trust.

I just hope the problem is sorted in a timely and inexpensive manor.
 
The plot thickens! I'm getting pop corn. Just kidding; bummer to hear on this friend. Post the EGR code when you get a chance.

Do post back and tell us what happened!
 
Hello All, the mechanic has "more than likely" found the problem: the wires & connector to the crank sensor were SOAKED in oil, stuck together, bare, etc. (a mess). He separated, cleaned and re-sealed them and the car is no longer stalling in driveway! (It was previously stalling at 35 minutes) but have now run it for 90 minutes with no stalling :) I haven't taken it out "yet" (a few other things to fix before I take it out). Then it's on to this oil leak. "Getting there slowly, but surely" . . Thanks again to all of you and have a great day!
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"richardgriese": that was funny (the popcorn) . . . yup, not so "funny" about the friend. There are many "obvious" details (now, of course, but not then) how he took advantage. That would require a "SEQUEL" (LOL) MOVING FORWARD! :)
 
I am glad your mechanic has found and repaired one problem. Hopefully this will be all you need to do.

While he was looking the car over did he check the car over for any important needed repairs?

I am thinking from the description of how your brother maintained the car you shouldn't have too much to do.

Good luck and keep us posted.
 
Glad it's solved!

A few other points about that 3800 series II:

1) Check to see if there are any recalls and get them fixed. GM issued me a few recalls for valve cover gaskets because under heavy braking oil can spill onto the exhaust and cause a fire. I don't want to alarm you as I have driven with leaky gaskets and not had one and I am sure many others have, but GM will take care of it for you so just get it done.

2) The black plastic on the top of the engine is known to have problems around the EGR part of it. It melts and causes a coolant leak. Doorman sells a kit that included a new black plastic plenum and an aluminum insert that blocks the EGR's piping more.

3) Have the mechanic check to see if the lower intake gaskets are good or ask your brother if he replaced them with nice aluminum ones. These will go bad and cause you to have a coolant leak and coolant and oil mixing.

4) Keep up on the maintenance and it will be a good car. You can ask questions here or ask your brother, I'm sure he will now.

That's about it. These are great engines/cars. Do let us know what's going on with that code as well the one for the EGR. Ask the mechanic to scan and tell us the code. It should look like P0400-P0409
 
Thank you for the "Round 2" suggestions/tips! So glad I found this site, as well as the mechanic who is helping me at "very reasonable" rates :)

Yes, I "just" researched all the recalls yesterday. Mechanic was previously somewhat aware of the oil leak/valve cover recall. My brother did take it in for the "first" solution they had years ago. Apparently they discovered that was "not the solution" and issued another recall. I'm being told the current recall status is "no remedy" and that "I will be notified". "Fanatic brother" (LOL) took care of "all other recall items" when he owned it.

Do you have some popcorn ready? I forgot to mention in my "thickened plot" chapter earlier that "fanatic brother" actually asked me recently if he could have his car back!!! That was PRIOR to him knowing the issues I've had with it. He quickly changed his mind about taking it back when I explained what was happening.

So my mechanic is addressing other issues one at a time with his "limited availability". He's been so helpful and was VERY appreciative that I came on here for help AND for all your suggestions/tips! Printing out your newest ones now for him.

I did get sidetracked about getting that EGR code when he found the damaged wires, so I forgot to ask him, but will have that info next time I'm back on.
Thanks again, All!
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Glad to hear it; I just remembered another item for you.

If you do any work on the cooling system in the future, replace the black coolant elbows (they are below the alternator) with aluminum ones made by Doorman. If you do this, either buy new o-rings from GM or rtv the Doorman o-rings with rtv for waterpump gaskets. I have had 2 of those sets of o-rings fail on me before I decided to research and yeah, they are trash. I like having the aluminum though so it's worth it for me. Alternatively you could still used the black plastic ones as they are not very expensive.

Tell your brother to get another one! Lol!

Add a sunroof if you don't have one/want one; that's a really cool project.

Sometime that bothers me a lot is the grease/slime. You could look at replacing the oil pan gasket sometime with the valve cover gaskets.

Other things I did to my 2002 GP was add the DIC and a HUD because why not? I found them cheap at the junkyard but I had to find a wiring diagram and splice into wires because I didn't have the harness. the 1997 should have the harness if you ever want that - but it could* be considered a lot of work (I took my dash out at the time to install it)
 
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