Erratic Timing

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The timing on my son's '86 auto GT will start jumping around like crazy as the motor warms up. Not there until the temp is close to norm, and then lessens when the engine is fully warm, but still present. We put a timing light on it when it was doing this and the timing is being pulled erratically and in very short intervals, like a miss of some kind. We have taken it to several shops and all they want to do is replace parts (the shotgun treatment), but still no help. What has been replaced:

Plugs/wires
injectors
distributor/coil
eng temp sensor (under thermostat)
ECM
tach sending unit

There's an exhaust leak on the forward head, but the spark plug wires are kept away from it.

Any ideas?
 
Sounds like the shotgun has been well used but poorly aimed. This is really taxing my memory, but a couple things come to mind. 1. slop in distributor drive gear/shaft bushings- that sort of thing. 2. streched timing chain/bad tensioner/worn gears. Start with the easy stuff. Could get your hands dirty but shouldn't be too expensive.
 
Sounds like the shotgun has been well used but poorly aimed. This is really taxing my memory, but a couple things come to mind. 1. slop in distributor drive gear/shaft bushings- that sort of thing. 2. streched timing chain/bad tensioner/worn gears. Start with the easy stuff. Could get your hands dirty but shouldn't be too expensive.
.

It has a new distributor with no slop. As I stated, it only happens when the car is warm. If it were a timing chain, this would be constant.
 
You are taking the timing reading with the vacuum advance disconnected?
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You are taking the timing reading with the vacuum advance disconnected?

Don't remember if the vacuum advance was disconnected or not, but the timing was being pulled back past the initial setting (10 deg) and past TDC (very retarded), so ignition advance is not the problem. We checked all the vacuum lines and they are good.
 
Have you watched this video or are using a shop manual to check the timing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CzDk9wswG4

This is from another site are you following this type of procedure?


warm the car up to operating temperature. turn car off, unscrew the over in the console(cigarette lighter area) and jumper terminals a and b on the accl connector. set up your timing light and make sure the belts are clear. start the car with the jumper in place. the check engine light should flash, this is normal, set timing to what is specified on the label on the inside of your engine lid, my 85 se 2m6 is set at 10 degrees btc. marks are on the crank pulley for timing. set timing light off number one cylinder sparkplug wire. one is closest to trunk area and passenger side of car.
 
Have you watched this video or are using a shop manual to check the timing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CzDk9wswG4

This is from another site are you following this type of procedure?


warm the car up to operating temperature. turn car off, unscrew the over in the console(cigarette lighter area) and jumper terminals a and b on the accl connector. set up your timing light and make sure the belts are clear. start the car with the jumper in place. the check engine light should flash, this is normal, set timing to what is specified on the label on the inside of your engine lid, my 85 se 2m6 is set at 10 degrees btc. marks are on the crank pulley for timing. set timing light off number one cylinder sparkplug wire. one is closest to trunk area and passenger side of car.

Seen that video. We used the shop manual procedure (page 6E3-C4-2) which says to follow the proceedure on the emission control label, which says to do the jumper in the ECM plug and to check the timing on both the #1 and #4 plugs (if I recall), and set to 10 deg BTDC. As I said, car runs good when cold. Had all the normal indications when setting timing as you mention above.
 
OK, just wanted to make sure. There is another member on this forum OREIF who hopefully will see your post, otherwise drop him a PM.
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Question, As you see the timing jump around, does the engine change RPM or tone at idle?

It could be a couple of things. Below are the common things that can cause this on a Fiero 2.8L.
External Mechanical:
Since it does it warmed up but not cold I suspect it is the harmonic balancer. On all the 2.8L/3.1L/3.4L V-6's GM made a 2-piece balancer. The outer ring is attached to the inner ring by a rubberized epoxy. Over time this breaks down and causes the outer ring to slip. They tend to slip more when the engine is hotter as the rubberized epoxy gets softer with heat. The best way to verify this is to jack up the car and pop off the passenger side rear tire. Look and the seam where the outer ring meets the inner ring. If it is cracked or has pieces missing, It is bad. (This could also cause the initial timing to be off as well causing what you are seeing as well.) You can buy replacement balancer for around $70. But be careful the replacement may not have the timing marks in the same spot. All the balancers for all the engines listed above are the same except the Fiero version has the timing marks set up for the left side of the timing cover. If the one you buy is not marked the same, You can mark it yourself. From the wide cut in the balancer, (there are 3 on the new ones 120* apart. One is wide and the two other are thinner width) remark a cut 4.300" to the left. Once cut, paint the mark with white or yellow paint so you know it is the correct one.
Vacuum Problem:
If the timing is really jumping, Then you need to look at some other items. You stated the distributor is new. Does this include the ignition module inside? If so then hook up a vacuum gauge to a full vacuum port, Does the vacuum needle jump with around in sync with the timing? If so you could have a vacuum leak. The most common area to look at is the plastic lines that run under the top plenum (red part) of the intake. Over time these can get brittle and split. Since it does it after warm up I would look at the MAP sensor, EGR switch, and/or EGR. These sensors do not affect the computer control until the car warms up and goes into closed loop mode. The other common place for a vacuum leak is the tube that goes from the EGR to the red part of the intake. Should be about 1/2" diameter tube. These tend to crack at the flanges. If it is cracked, You can get a replacement from many places but ask for one for a 1988 Fiero. These used flexible tubing instead of a solid tube. Less prone to cracking. The Fiero Store is the best place to get a new one.
Electrical Problem:
Finally, Electrical issues. Certainly plugs and wires could have a problem. Generally these would cause a misfire. If the timing light is inductive just hook it to each spark plug wire and watch the strobe. If it has a wire that seems to miss a flash occassionally, it could be that wire or the spark plug. The Tach sending unit is the silver can looking thing (about 1.5" long) near the distributor. Make sure it is properly grounded. It should have a white wire going in and one going out with the metal case mount to the head. The case needs to be grounded. Ususally this will cause missing or the tach on the dash to jump erratically.
The engine temp sensor is easy to check as well. Just go to an auto parts store that offers to check engine codes and ask to use the diagnostic one. The car should be warm and you can see what temp the computer reads, the rpm of the engine (verify it matches tach) and if the engine is in open or closed loop. It should be in closed loop when hot and open loop when cold. If it is still in open loop after it warms up, It could be the oxygen sensor is going bad. Which would cause the engine to try and compensate by changing the fuel once warmed up and the engine behave erratically. The last thing to do is check the engine grounding straps. If one is broken or missing it can cause all kinds of weird electrical and ignition problems. One strap should be on the firewall side head going from the head to the right side hinge frame. Make sure the wire goes from the head and not the aluminum bracket. The second one goes from a bolt on the firewall side that holds the trans to the engine and goes to the frame rail just under the air cleaner. Also make sure the negative battery cable is clean and goes to the head or the engine block and not a bracket.
An easy check is with the engine off measure in ohms the resistance from a bolt on the head or engine block to the negative side of the battery. If it is more than 5 ohms you have a grounding issue. Typically it should read 2-3 ohms.
Fuel problem:
Injectors and fuel pressure regulator will cause a problem all the time. The MAP sensor could also be the problem if it is dirty. Below is a link to download the Factory Service manual which will tell you how to check it out. The IAC valve could be a problem too. It is located on the side of the throttle body with a 4-wire connector. You can remove it and clean it. Just be aware if you remove it and clean it idle may run high. In order to reset it the car has to be driven over 40 mph so the ECM can set the idle. Also if you pull off the hose that goes to the air filter and look inside the throttle body you will see the IAC port on the bottom. Cover it with your finger while the car is running. If it dies that is good. If the engine keeps running, it is definately a vacuum leak.

Link to factory service manual: http://www.fieronews.net/fusion/downloads.php?cat_id=13

The above should help you locate what the problem is or what area it is without shotgunning parts. Let us know what you find.
 
Last edited:
Question, As you see the timing jump around, does the engine change RPM or tone at idle?

It could be a couple of things. Below are the common things that can cause this on a Fiero 2.8L.
External Mechanical:
Since it does it warmed up but not cold I suspect it is the harmonic balancer. On all the 2.8L/3.1L/3.4L V-6's GM made a 2-piece balancer. The outer ring is attached to the inner ring by a rubberized epoxy. Over time this breaks down and causes the outer ring to slip. They tend to slip more when the engine is hotter as the rubberized epoxy gets softer with heat. The best way to verify this is to jack up the car and pop off the passenger side rear tire. Look and the seam where the outer ring meets the inner ring. If it is cracked or has pieces missing, It is bad. (This could also cause the initial timing to be off as well causing what you are seeing as well.) You can buy replacement balancer for around $70. But be careful the replacement may not have the timing marks in the same spot. All the balancers for all the engines listed above are the same except the Fiero version has the timing marks set up for the left side of the timing cover. If the one you buy is not marked the same, You can mark it yourself. From the wide cut in the balancer, (there are 3 on the new ones 120* apart. One is wide and the two other are thinner width) remark a cut 4.300" to the left. Once cut, paint the mark with white or yellow paint so you know it is the correct one.
Vacuum Problem:
If the timing is really jumping, Then you need to look at some other items. You stated the distributor is new. Does this include the ignition module inside? If so then hook up a vacuum gauge to a full vacuum port, Does the vacuum needle jump with around in sync with the timing? If so you could have a vacuum leak. The most common area to look at is the plastic lines that run under the top plenum (red part) of the intake. Over time these can get brittle and split. Since it does it after warm up I would look at the MAP sensor, EGR switch, and/or EGR. These sensors do not affect the computer control until the car warms up and goes into closed loop mode. The other common place for a vacuum leak is the tube that goes from the EGR to the red part of the intake. Should be about 1/2" diameter tube. These tend to crack at the flanges. If it is cracked, You can get a replacement from many places but ask for one for a 1988 Fiero. These used flexible tubing instead of a solid tube. Less prone to cracking. The Fiero Store is the best place to get a new one.
Electrical Problem:
Finally, Electrical issues. Certainly plugs and wires could have a problem. Generally these would cause a misfire. If the timing light is inductive just hook it to each spark plug wire and watch the strobe. If it has a wire that seems to miss a flash occassionally, it could be that wire or the spark plug. The Tach sending unit is the silver can looking thing (about 1.5" long) near the distributor. Make sure it is properly grounded. It should have a white wire going in and one going out with the metal case mount to the head. The case needs to be grounded. Ususally this will cause missing or the tach on the dash to jump erratically.
The engine temp sensor is easy to check as well. Just go to an auto parts store that offers to check engine codes and ask to use the diagnostic one. The car should be warm and you can see what temp the computer reads, the rpm of the engine (verify it matches tach) and if the engine is in open or closed loop. It should be in closed loop when hot and open loop when cold. If it is still in open loop after it warms up, It could be the oxygen sensor is going bad. Which would cause the engine to try and compensate by changing the fuel once warmed up and the engine behave erratically. The last thing to do is check the engine grounding straps. If one is broken or missing it can cause all kinds of weird electrical and ignition problems. One strap should be on the firewall side head going from the head to the right side hinge frame. Make sure the wire goes from the head and not the aluminum bracket. The second one goes from a bolt on the firewall side that holds the trans to the engine and goes to the frame rail just under the air cleaner. Also make sure the negative battery cable is clean and goes to the head or the engine block and not a bracket.
An easy check is with the engine off measure in ohms the resistance from a bolt on the head or engine block to the negative side of the battery. If it is more than 5 ohms you have a grounding issue. Typically it should read 2-3 ohms.
Fuel problem:
Injectors and fuel pressure regulator will cause a problem all the time. The MAP sensor could also be the problem if it is dirty. Below is a link to download the Factory Service manual which will tell you how to check it out. The IAC valve could be a problem too. It is located on the side of the throttle body with a 4-wire connector. You can remove it and clean it. Just be aware if you remove it and clean it idle may run high. In order to reset it the car has to be driven over 40 mph so the ECM can set the idle. Also if you pull off the hose that goes to the air filter and look inside the throttle body you will see the IAC port on the bottom. Cover it with your finger while the car is running. If it dies that is good. If the engine keeps running, it is definately a vacuum leak.

Link to factory service manual: http://www.fieronews.net/fusion/downloads.php?cat_id=13

The above should help you locate what the problem is or what area it is without shotgunning parts. Let us know what you find.

Thanks for all the info. We have both a hard copy and electronic copy of the GM shop manual as well as Chilton and Haynes manuals.

The RPM jumps around (gauge included), and the engine shutters and sometimes stalls out it is running so ruff.

External mechanical: Haven’t looked at the harmonic balancer, so that is a new one. Will do that as soon as we can.

Vacuum Problem: We have checked the all the lines, but will repeat with emphasis on the ones you mention. The EGR ½” metal tube on the car is the flexible piping, and didn’t looked cracked, but will check again.

Electrical issues: There are new plugs and wires on the car but hadn’t thought of checking with the timing light, will check that. Tach sending unit is new and seems to be working fine as the tach correctly follows the engine RPM (starts jumping when engine does). Replaced both the engine temp sensor (below thermostat housing) and temp gauge sensor (on aft part of right head) as well as O2 sensor, injectors, and ECM. In regards to a diagnostic tool at an auto parts store, I assume the tool offered by the Feiro Store is good? I understand the open/closed loop cycle as I have a OBD-II scan tool I use on my newer cars to monitor and clear codes. When we took the car to a local shop, they could do more than just read codes.

We checked the grounding straps, but the 2-3 ohm reading is a good number to have and will check.

Fuel problem: New injectors and checked the fuel pressure and it was good. Will check the IAC.

Thanks again, and will follow up after we check this stuff.
 
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