94 Sunbird starting problem

MTJack

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I have a 94 4dr Sunbird LE with the 2.0 motor and automatic trans. Runs like a champ when it starts, trouble is it is very difficult to start after sitting overnight. Have to crank it for 3-4 minutes, sputters and spurts, then starts eventually and runs fine for the rest of the day. Starts instantly all day, then the next day it repeats same pattern. Would call it a cold start issue, but here in Arizona in the summer it is never cold. I have checked everything I can think of - fuel pressure 40 psi, good spark and compression, vacuum a bit low at 16" but no leaks that I can detect. Probably a sensor or computer problem. Wondering if it's worth the expense to fix it. It's a clean, straight little car, close to 30 mpg, drives nice, would hate to get rid of it if it can be fixed for a fairly decent cost. :confused: Banging my head on the wall lately, which doesn't seem to help.
 
Clean throttle body, check fuel pressure regulator vaccuum line for gas, if found replace regulator, possible engine temperature sensor. How many miles since last tuneup?
 
Test the IAC valve. Test the temp sender. Test the ignition module .


If thats not it, then have someone with an OBD1 " real time scan tool" hook up and test your car for you while you crank it.

A shop should be easy to find with the Equipment since you have tough emmision testing in that state. ( I just moved from there.)

I think they charge $ 75-80 to hook up and scan if I recall.

Check your Grounds. ( all computor grounds are on a bolt on the cylinder head above the #4 spark plug) Make sure they are clean and tight.

Doug in P.R.:cool:
 
Managed to fix the starting issue - replacing all vacuum lines improved things considerably. For a while. Last week, while driving, suddenly started running REAL rough. Got it home, went through all tests AGAIN. PROBLEM (BIG): No compression in cylinders 3 & 4. (1 & 2 148 & 160). Also, did leakdown test - air going from 3 into 4 and vice-versa. So, probably a blown head gasket (but no coolant in oil or oil in coolant), maybe cracked head, possibly hole in block.

I am not going to fix it. Need something newer and more reliable. So, anybody want a nice looking, nice driving 4 dr Sunbird with 153,000 miles running on 2 cylinders? Actually is drivable, gets up to about 50 mph right now.
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Managed to fix the starting issue - replacing all vacuum lines improved things considerably. For a while. Last week, while driving, suddenly started running REAL rough. Got it home, went through all tests AGAIN. PROBLEM (BIG): No compression in cylinders 3 & 4. (1 & 2 148 & 160). Also, did leakdown test - air going from 3 into 4 and vice-versa. So, probably a blown head gasket (but no coolant in oil or oil in coolant), maybe cracked head, possibly hole in block.

I am not going to fix it. Need something newer and more reliable. So, anybody want a nice looking, nice driving 4 dr Sunbird with 153,000 miles running on 2 cylinders? Actually is drivable, gets up to about 50 mph right now.


Yeah blown gasket. I don't think that its anything but that since it don't seem these cars mix the fluids when they are blown. Yours failed exactly in the same spot all of them fail in. A nice flepro MLS gasket will fix it and new head bolts.

It's not bad to fix it really it can be done in about 4 hours.

A good way to make sure its just a blown gasket just open the coolant fill tank and smell it. I bet it won't smell like coolant it smells similar to a crappy sealant. Mine never mixed the fluids but it became pretty evident what happened when it started finally giving out white smoke. But even that took a while.

But yeah it sucks to have a blown head gasket and I can understand not wanting to replace it but I have to say that these engines are noted for being extremely durable and reliable. Not sure about the 94 so much but the engine in most of them are good enough to try to save.
 
SEE! That's why I wanna replace my head gaskets before I push 'em to their limits!!! There aren't enough minutes in a day!
EC, Might be beyond his expertise. Four Bangers ARE Easy!
 
I am not going to fix it. Need something newer and more reliable. So, anybody want a nice looking, nice driving 4 dr Sunbird with 153,000 miles running on 2 cylinders? Actually is drivable, gets up to about 50 mph right now.

Try to get that past AZ emissions!;)

Part it out perhaps on Craigslist.

Didnt see many of those cars on the road in AZ, most were in the junkyard.......:o

Doug in P.R.:cool:
 
Pulling the head and replacing the head gasket would not be a problem - I'm not the greatest mechanic ever but I've done plenty of that stuff before, mostly small block Chevy's. I have 2 main concerns though.

1. If it turns out to NOT be the head gasket, but the head itself or the block, now I have a non-drivable car. The way it is now, at least it can drive down the street, maybe not too far or too fast, but it can move under its own power, which is worth a lot.

2. If it IS the head gasket, and I replace that, and all the valves, etc, seem good, now I have a basically solid top end. Wouldn't that mean that, in all probability, the bottom end (piston rings, crank or rod bearings) would now be the weak link in the chain and fail sooner rather than later? This would necessitate a complete rebuild, which I definitely would not be able to do.

Mr Evilcowboy said these engines are 'extremely durable and reliable'. So it might very well be worth putting the time and $40 for a head gasket into it. Even with 153000 miles, these have been pretty easy miles, at least the last 40000 since I've had it, so maybe the bottom end is still in pretty good shape. It never has used any oil to speak of. Never had any problems with the motor itself, just ancillary things, like fuel pump (replaced 2 years ago), vacuum lines, minor electrical, heater core, stuff like that. Seems a shame to junk it or part it out, since about 95% of the rest of the car right now is perfectly fine, and it is very straight, inside and out.

I appreciate the feedback, and I will keep everyone informed. I'm asking 700 for it right now, on CL & BP. But I deal!!!
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In theory yeah the bottom end could be a weak link . However these cars are not noted for the bottom end going bad. Usually what kills these cars is blown head gasket right in front of cylinder 3 and 4 and then someone drives it and the oil and coolant looks fine because its just a slow leak and can usually be driven for a while before it finally hyperlocks the pistons and toasts the whole bottom end too.

I will say the guy who had mine before me drove it for a while like this and it cause coolant to be blown through the oil pickup tube right into the cam carrier (the little rubber hose on the front) as a result it took out the cam and rocker arms with it.

To confirm blown gasket just pull that rubber tube on the front (you may have to cut it and hack saw some of the material away to fit a new rubber piece there) but it costs nothing to confirm the peanut butter in that tube.

I honestly can't explain the phenomenon of not having the whole oil system look that way usually one or the other shows signs of mixing. But in all honesty thats really the only sign if it ain't blowing white smoke.

Or another quick and easy way is to rev the engine while in park and have someone at the tail pipe hold their hand right under it and when you rev it you will most likely see coolant sprinkles.

I am not really trying to convince you to keep the car if you have had it with it then so be it. I commend you on your efforts to sale it because you are being honest saying it runs on 2 cylinders which I have seen a ton of people not as honest. But on the other hand if I can some how help someone save their engine with an small repair and they get a few more years out of the car then I am honestly happy for them. I just don't want to see someone sale a car if they can bring it back to life and be happy with it.

Plus we need another sunbird owner working on these cars. We may actually get what GM engineers were thinking with doing some of the things they did on these engines (some smart and some not so smart) water pump as a timing belt tensioner is as freaking stupid as it gets. lol Hope you decide its worth the fix they really are fun cars to work on as TM says the four bangers are easy. Yeah they aren't head turners and they aint the most powerful car but they sure don't use a lot of gas.

But then again you are talking to someone who absolutely hates the grand am. They are an example of a good idea gone bad. Kind of like the renaults great economy cars but will kill you if you hit a squirrel lol
 
I concur! EC is right. If you're fed up, sell it to a teenager! Buy him the gasket as cheap as you can on ebay. Otherwise, if you've caught it early and it hasn't overheated to the point of Sizzle, the bottom end is probably fine. Just change the oil early a couple of times after the repair to clean the system out. I worked on dirt bikes that sat in the weather for years and the gear box was full of rain water. I drain 'em and pop the cover off and it's like opening a NEW engine! Sealing the top doesn't weaken the bottom. It restores oil pressure! Your call.
 
The main problem with these cars is the cooling fan/temp sensor/ fan relay. This probally causes 80% of the overheating problems.

The computer regulates when the fan comes on by the temp the engine is at.
If the relay or the sensor is bad, the fan doesnt come on and the car overheats.

This even the case in V6 cars too.

I've heard of these cars getting close to 300K on the original motor, with 33-35 mpg during their lifetime.


Example.......
Everyone thought the Vega motor was junk from the getgo, it was really the radiator was too small to cool the motor.

The most miles I seen on one of these cars was 236K on the original motor/trans.

I bet you could find another simular car in AZ ( older person owned) that is great mechanical shape

Or fix yours cheaply and keep it, like we are doing......

Doug in P.R.:cool:
 
Thanks for all the knowledgeable advice. Very good all. It is appreciated.
I decided I will replace the head gasket myself. Looks like the only hard part of the job is keeping track of all the hoohaa on top, and of course getting the exhaust manifold bolts off, which is always difficult on any car. And keeping the timing belt marks etc lined up properly - wouldn't do to get it all back together just to have the pistons hit the valves. These are interference motors, I believe.
One good thing though. I bought a 2001 Subaru Outback, so I am in no rush to get this job done, and can take my time and do it right. I will post photos of the job, the head gasket, the head, the valves, etc, so everyone can learn from this situation. That is why we are all here, right? To learn from each other.
Thanks again.
 
That's my broken little Sunbird, alright, in post #12. Hopefully soon to be fixed.
 
Have no fear , its a Non Interference Motor ;)

Timing Belt change at 60K mile intervals.................

Doug in P.R.
 
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If it needs a new head, only $200 on Ebay.;)

Just follow what EC did on his ( check for warpage , use the right gaskets/bolts , etc.)
A little more complicated with the fuel rail and injectors but should't be too hard to do. Just make sure the fan is running and you always keep tabs on the coolant temp guage once its done..............:)

Doug in P.R.:cool:
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Thanks for all the knowledgeable advice. Very good all. It is appreciated.
I decided I will replace the head gasket myself. Looks like the only hard part of the job is keeping track of all the hoohaa on top, and of course getting the exhaust manifold bolts off, which is always difficult on any car. And keeping the timing belt marks etc lined up properly - wouldn't do to get it all back together just to have the pistons hit the valves. These are interference motors, I believe.
One good thing though. I bought a 2001 Subaru Outback, so I am in no rush to get this job done, and can take my time and do it right. I will post photos of the job, the head gasket, the head, the valves, etc, so everyone can learn from this situation. That is why we are all here, right? To learn from each other.
Thanks again.


Yep fun stuff. Yeah Doug is 100% right these are noninterference engines. I was glad when I found that out too cause my belt stripped a couple teeth from being so old. I imagine it was the one from 88.

Yeah with the fuel rails it is going to make it a bit tougher. Dont use FailPro Victor Reinze has higher quality gaskets.

As Doug said I cleaned the head from top to bottom and pulled everything to check it out. I cannot stress checking the cam lobes and the rockers/followers for scoring. The lifters should feel solid as a rock when you push on the tops if they move you need new ones.

There are 10 points to check for flatness on these heads. 3 horizontally across the chambers 5 vertically focusing on between the cylinder chambers and 2 diagonally. Check for .0015 chances are that the chamber on top of cylinder 4 (right side looking at the engine) will be out a bit mine was .002

If your cheap like me then I did not want to pay for it to be machined so I lapped it. Lapping actually gets it flatter than any machine could ever hope. Don't go above 800 grit paper. But what I did was grabbed a glass top table and sprayed glue to the back of sand paper (2 sheets should be enough) and moved it back and forth up and down and diagonally. This is a long process but gives the best result for head flatness.

Oh and don't loose the small round seal that comes out the side of the head when you remove the thermostat housing from the head. It's an easy piece to loose.

These are TTY bolts so once you torque them don't reuse them and I would strongly advise against using the original bolts again since they are also TTY bolts. You have to get a new set anytime you untorque them.

Anyways sorry for the long winded response I just didn't want someone to have to go through the same amount of searching I did when I had to do mine. Good luck on it. I'd love to see some pics when your done.

Here is a link to the post I made about doing this with some pics. Although I didn't post as I progressed it does have some very good shots of the engine and head.

http://www.pontiacforum.com/pontiac/showthread.php?t=30221
 
Decided to go ahead and remove the head, see what the problem was. Deciding factor was car wouldn't start anymore, so figured nothing to lose.
After about 5 hours fighting all the crazy things these GM engineers did, I got the head off, and what do you know, blown head gasket, just like everybody said, big chunk missing between cylinders 3 and 4.
Easy fix, you might think. BUT, found cracks between intake and exhaust ports, right at the thinnest part of the separation between the valves, on all 4 cylinders. This can be ground out and repaired by a good welder, but is it worth the cost? Doing something like that (rebuild head, basically) probably in the neighborhood of $200 or more. THEN, I have to put it all back together, making sure I get all those crazy water connections and vacuum lines and sensor wires hooked up right. I don't think I am up for all that. Beyond my skill level.
Or I can get a junkyard head, but same problems probable there too.
So, anybody want a project, take it away as it is for $200?
 
How deep are the cracks.

Harbor Freight sells Alumiweld rods for 15.99 and use a torch to fill in the cracks and then a dremel tool to smooth them out.

Junk yard head may not have the cracks but a little warpage which can be lapped flat for around 20 bucks for sandpaper a piece of glass and a feeler gauge. It takes a bit of time but can be done. if it isn't warped then your good to go. GM tolerances for heads on these cars are .0015 - .004 so if all angles measure in that for flatness then it should hold up just fine.

A cracked head isn't the worst....... there is also a database of junkyards in the US. I remember looking at the cost of a head for this car and found one at a junkyard in PA for 100 bucks and 30 bucks shipping. To me $130 bucks is worth fixing it. (oh and the head is also already pulled and cleaned by the junk yard usually)

It really all depends on if you wanna work on a car or not for a project to do. Me I personally like doing that kind of stuff so I do work on cars most people would junk one over.


Oh one more thing I remember when I did the head on mine I thought there was a crack between the same spot after cleaning the head and really scrubbing it down it turned out to be carbon and burned oil that made it look like a crack because of the way GM cast the head. So really scrub off what looks like cracks.
 
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