advice needed about firebirds

2002SEsunfire

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how reliable are the firebirds and trans ams 1970-2002? Everyone i talk to says they are trash. someone else said if you find one with tpi it is a decent car. Is everyone right or are they actually good cars?

things i would like to know

average upkeep cost
problems people have seen
what is better fbird, trans am, or camaro?
im mainly looking at the 80-02
how hard is it to find parts
 
The main obstacle you will need to overcome with any of the cars you have chosen to research is the owners of those cars.
All of these cars attract owners that are young enough to want to drive them and unfortunately want to personalize them.

While tasteful Modifications once done can make the car look good, or sound good or even make more power. what kind of horrible workmanship will you find lurking just waiting to be discovered at the worst possible moment.

a car that was highly modified by a hack wanna be shade tree mechanic is normally easy to spot and avoid.

What is not so easy to spot and avoid is work from a lazy uncaring line mechanic or mechanics that have over the years have decided to cut every corner they can by not rerouting the wiring harness correctly after doing a cylinder head job or leaving bolts out, not torquing bolts properly. chopping away at vacuum lines and wiring, bypassing nearly anything they can so they can move on to the next gravy job.

The worst part is when the cars were new or new enough to have every GM part available cheap crooked shop owners even GM dealers would put in junk China made parts without the owner being any wiser yet the owner got charged for a OEM part at a OEM part price.

MY point is, your question is not a fair one to any of the cars you have listed.

All of these cars when produced new started life just as reliable as any other car from that era

1981-1992 are examples of cars that normally do not have a resale value high enough to warrant a pebble beach restoration, finding parts for these cars can be difficult to impossible depending on what part you want.

If your lucky enough to get one of these cars that was a garage kept one owner low mileage with a complete service history and clean title, you may have a chance of ending up with a decent car that has low power and a quirky unreliable computer management system.

the cars from 1981-1992 have a lot of single function electronics and miles of wires and tons of plastic connectors that are now very old and brittle which will make your driving experience like playing Russian roulette.

many of the cosmetic parts that you would need over time and parts to keep your car functioning may only be available second hand or aftermarket this means much of what makes the car operate will no longer be a GM part
parts from name brand suppliers like Eldebrock, MSD etc are great parts that are at least as reliable as the factory. but many people turn to discount auto parts Auto zone type stores that sell made in China cheap reproductions of the original once a car has enough of this garbage on it. you can no longer consider that car when comparing reliability and performance.

1993-1997 has a vastly improved Computerized management system improved power, yet today this is a old car with old electronics old wiring old connectors etc. scarce parts in some areas.

1998-2002 has a very sophisticated computerized management system
with available powerful engines that has a large supply of factory and aftermarket parts. yet it is a old car as well and can be tricky to find a clean one.

The key is on any of these cars is like I said start out with a low mileage one owner unmolested car that was well maintained with the service records to prove it. Good luck finding this unicorn.

if you want to see how hard it is to find factory parts for any particular year GM product, research the parts you think you would want factory parts for, then look it up at http://www.gmpartsonline.net/chevy-parts.html

You will find many possibly needed parts discontinued, the older the car is the less parts they will have available.

As far as which is better? that would have to be a personal choice of what year make model car you fall in love with.

For me my favorite has always been the 1970-1978 Pontiac Trans am, Not because it is best, not because of Burt Reynolds but because I like the looks and it fits me at 6'3" like a glove. Most importantly you can get them with a Pontiac made engine not just a GM Or Chevy engine.

Yet if I went out to buy one today as a rolling project I would know when my project was done it would most likely be a much different car that rolled off the showroom floor so many years ago mainly because of parts availability would force my hand to change things to aftermarket parts.

while aftermarket parts are not the end of the world some are desirable especially the go fast parts. yet the aftermarket industry will always leave you needing more parts than they are willing to reproduce.

Its kind of like going to the Home Depot for a simple project that requires 30 separate items to start and complete the project, you will likely find 80 percent of what you need and want, the other 20 percent of items you will have to be creative and patient trying to locate.

So my advice to you is, if you have chosen Pontiac as your next car either a daily driver or a weekend cruiser, Make it one you love, make it one that you do not care what others think about it. the car is for you, the experience is yours. who cares what your friends say.

Be patient enough to walk away from a thousand cars that have titles in their sales listing that reads Mint condition. ( because people lie or are as blind as bats when it comes time to sell their car )

If this car is going to be a daily driver, and you plan on driving it like a daily driver. make sure whatever you end up with, can compete with modern cars of today, when it comes to braking.

a 1972 Pontiac Firebird in stock form cannot compete with even a newer Hyundai when it comes to 60MPH to 0MPH

So all your efforts will be for nothing if a modern car in front of you successfully completes a panic stop while your only a few feet away from their rear bumper.

I hope this is helpful
 
thanks for answering my questions. I do when I am on CL look at the surroundings to see what the environment is like. I currently own a 02 sunfire sedan. Its my daily. I wanted a fbird or trans am as a weekend driver. I think I will look at the 1997-2002 because they are newer and look good and are more performance oriented I think. I also will look at the 1970-1978 because they also look good.
 
Howdy 2002SEsunfire!

My daily driver is an 86 Trans Am. Let me tell you, if you're just looking for a weekend driver, you can't go wrong with these cars. The talk about them being trash is, of course, trash. If the car isn't taken care of, of course it's going to be crap. On the other hand, a well maintained car is going to work like it should. Mine, naturally, was trash. A couple of illiterate rednecks swapped the old smog 305 out for an even older, even smoggier 305 (came from an 84 caprice) and butchered the installation. coolant hoses were all loose, wire harness was melting on the manifolds, Flakes in the oil even after we changed it. You get the idea. Let me just say, this thing is a trooper. Even with all the problems it works fairly well for what it is. some minor issues to fix for inspection, but mechanically (after we rebuilt the transmission) everything works as it should. We put a good quadrajet carb on it and a mated it up with a 3 speed TH-350 auto trans, non-lockup, and I haven't had a problem with it yet. I've been around a lot of performance cars, from a 72 chevelle with a nasty worked 502 to the new 201X "pony cars", and I can say the Trans Ams are my absolute favorite cars, especially the third gens.

Performance wise, an older car is the easiest, and most often cheapest way of going. Nothing compares to the cheap upgradability of old GM performance. Less computerized junk not only means that the vehicle will be easier to work on, but also much easier to customize to your needs. Want to put a 383 stroker in the car on the cheap cheap? Go right ahead, it'll bolt in and go. Want to do something more radical and destroke a 350 to a 302? Go ahead, it'll bolt right in. Performance wise, the older the car the easier it's going to be to push. I can build a 383 and take the quadrajet off my current 305, slap it on, and with a few adjustments have it purring. The computerized tpi systems that went on 87 and newer cars are much less forgiving, and if you swap out to an older style transmission that will hold up to a stronger engine, you'll have a lot of tinkering around to get the computer to work with the cable driven transmission.

Here's the TLDR for the things you wanted to know:

Average upkeep cost is exceptionally low compared to other vehicles. Good Ole GM performance. In terms of each style, first Gen birds will cost more than 2nd, 3rd gen birds will be the cheapest due to the huge community, amount of cars sold, and less computerized goodies. 4th gen birds like you are interested in will cost slightly more in upkeep, due to all the computerized goodies, electronic fuel injection, etc. Due to the abundance of parts however, this increase will be negligible.

Problems aren't really all that common on these vehicles. While I haven't owned first second or fourth gen birds, and so can't tell you the specific minor problems those cars have, I can give you good insight into the 3rd gens. To start, the flip up headlight motors can die. commonly, the actuator and isolation relays that allow these motors to work will fail, causing them to only go in one direction, generally down. the motors can be unplugged and cranked up to keep them up. these relays can be pricey (25-50 per actuator relay) and 80 for an isolation relay, providing you can find one. On top of this, the switches that control both the headlights and fog lamps can go bad too, keeping them from working. the trunks on third gens (camaro and firebirds) have a vacuum motor that sucks them shut when you close them. This motor can fail, and is $20 to $60 dollars depending on the replacement you buy. They fail more commonly on camaros. I've owned two severely neglected trans ams (an 87 and my 86) and the motors on both worked fine. Locks seize up on these cars, causing you to have to buy a whole new kit. All locks and ignition are on 1 key, so you'll have to keep track of two separate keys then. This rarely happens, but both my cars have suffered this. If the car is computerized, they come with an ignition security module called VATS Passkey. if this fails, the injectors will not work, so the car will never fire. This can easily be fixed by bypassing VATS, which there are many tutorials for online. Inside the trunk of third gens, there is a hidden compartment that stores the spare tire. This can take on moisture and rust out. My 87 that sat in the weeds for months while the previous owner worked on it did not have this problem, my 86 that was on gravel or concrete parking pads the whole time does. This is another easy fix, though a creative one. Also, if you don't take care of the dash pad and keep them polished, they will dry up and crack. This is extraordinarily common, and both of my cars came like this. A new pad can cost an upwards of $300! The last thing I can think of, and probably the only major problem that happens with these cars, is the air dam getting busted. These cars have solid front bumpers, so to take in enough air for cooling they require an air dam underneath the car to collect air flowing under the car. If you bottom out hard enough, this can crack or break off. You'll notice this right away, because air temperatures will go way up way quick. An easy fix, but it can be a costly one.

Which is better? That's all personal preference, really. Firebirds and Trans Ams have very slight styling differences, mainly the front ground effects and stickers. Firebirds tend to be lighter than Trans Ams, due to them not having many of the luxury options that Trans Ams came with. Trans Ams on the other hand generally have higher performance engines. Camaros generally are within the same performance specs and weights of most firebirds and trans ams (with some exceptions, such as the GTA and Turbo Trans Ams), but don't quite have as wide of flares and accented body lines that pontiacs have. This one's all on personal preferences. Keep in mind though that in terms of upgradability, camaros are slightly easier to work with. They have more engine compartment room and more room underneath, so it's much easier to put a big block, headers, larger dual exhausts, etc on these cars than on third and 4th gen birds. They can still be installed, it'll just be more fun doing it. first and second gen birds will not have this issue, since they are comparatively much larger cars.

Finding parts for these cars all depends on the gen of the car. First and Second gen parts will be harder to find and more expensive, while 3rd and 4th gen parts will be much easier to get ahold of. 3rd gen parts will arguably be cheaper 8 times out of 10 due to less components being computerized.

All in all, Pontiac's line up over the years has been amazing, save maybe a few models *cough Vibe cough*. The firebird/trans ams are no exception. I've been in a lot of high performance, medium performance, low performance cars trucks and suvs in my short time here on earth, and the Trans Ams have always excited me the most. Just keep this in mind: If you are a new or inexperienced driver, do not take these cars, or any F body for that matter, out on ice. They don't hook up and you'll find yourself in a ditch in no time flat. If you're confident in your ability to handle a vehicle in bad conditions, then you outta be fine in unless there's a blizzard going on. Don't drive like a fool, beat on the car, or redline it because you "like the noise", and she'll treat you right.
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Reborn, now that i know the common issues, your input. I change my mind about what different car i would want just like a girl who cant decide on what to wear. I do know i want a GM because parts are cheap, they are always cheap to buy. What is insurance cost for one of these, what would a good daily driver upgrades be (i.e handling, brakes, lights) I also know i want a pontiac either a 2005+ grand prix, 2003+ vibe, 2006+ G6, better sunfire, 80s to early 90s t-am or f-bird

also would late 80s with a carb be good or should i find one with tpi?
do they smog easily
where is the best place to buy parts?
 
1. Nobody can tell you what your insurance cost will be, since that is based on age, locations, driving record, etc. Most of the major insurance companies have web sites where you can answer some questions and get a quote.
2. Upgrades are typically tires, wheels, shock/struts, aftermarket bulbs such as from Sylvania.
3. I would stay away from anything older than 95 due to the switch from OBD1 to OBD2. The OBD2 systems are easier to work with since most places cant read OBD1 codes. This would also mean anything with a carburetor is too old.
4. Parts can be either purchased at local suppliers, autozone,napa, advance auto, GM dealers or online, www.rockauto.com , www.gmpartsdirect.com , www.napaonline.com, etc.
 
What is your budget or projected budget. and what is your budget for maintenance and unplanned repairs? what is your fuel budget?

How old are you? is this your first car or 40th?
Do you have experience and tools to repair this car?
Do you have the space to store a second or third donor car to be used for parts.

Answer all of these questions and we can help narrow down a GM product Pontiac hopefully vehicle that can be used as a reliable daily driver.

If you are young forget about buying anything that comes stock with a V8 or 4x4 or turbo or supercharger.because of insurance.

in 1988 I had a new Nissan dessert runner Red white and Blue I purchased brand new, My payments were 380 per month and my insurance was 480 per month LOL

Not the smartest move on my part, My insurance agent said I could have driven a new Corvette cheaper.
 
I have a 98 Firebird base convertible with the 3.8 V/6 This engine has been in production since the sixties. GM even sold the rights to Land Rover and had to buy them back. The engine has been used in many incarnations, even the Buick Grand National Turbo. It is practically bullet proof. What happens is the accessories go bad. Power steering pump,air conditioning compressor,and the alternator are aa few of the things that have been changed. most of these can be purchased on line or at the local Napa auto parts store relatively inexpensive.
Other things that have gone out, and from other people I have talked to they have experienced this, head light motors on the hideaway lights. Power window switches and motors. power antenna motor. Again all things available from web sites or local.
I drive this as a weekend car from April - Octoberand put it away from Chicago area salt crazy municipalities.
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I owned 3 F-Body's and have lived and breathed these cars for over 30 years. My f-body's were 86 TransAm with the 305 TPI. 96 TransAm 6-speed, and 99 WS6 TransAm with the 6 speed. let me start with the 3rd Generation f-body's, specifically 85+ with the TPI(Tuned Port Injection). As far as issues is concerned; Intake manifold gasket. That's automatic. Find out if it was replaced. It was a design issue. Aluminum intake sitting on top of a cast iron block. Thats why they leaked. The second is Valve Seals. Start the car. If you see a puff of blue smoke coming out the tailpipe. Then the valve seals are shot. For the third generation definitely look for the 89-92 GTA or Formula with the 350 TPI engine. Those were the best years for the 3rd generation!! I wish i had sold my 86 and gotten one of those years. The reason being is that in 89 they came with dual catalytic converters and bumped the HP figures from 225 to 240 for the TPI. Loved the new Look of the GTA and Formula in 91 and 92!! Some word of caution. Beware of transAms disguised as GTA's. Very common. Quick way to tell is that TransAms have a vent on the lower part of the fender near the door. The GTA's don't have that. Same with Formula's with Formula 350 badging. Foolproof way to know. Look at the VIN number. The 8th digit for the 350 engine is 8. The 305 is F. Fun cars to drive. perhaps the most fun for me in a alot of ways out of all my birds. Tons of performance bolt on mods!! These cars respond really well with a performance chip, catback exhaust and a 160 thermostat. The TPI was like a truck motor. Loads of bottom end torque. By the time it reached it's 5,500 rpm redline it was gasping for breathe. I did 15.4 at 90 mph in the 1/4 with every single bolt on that existed. Back in the 80's it was the shit. I feel bad looking back. I wish I had kept it more stock.

For my 96, the only issue I had was 6th to 5th downshift. It was an issue for the 93-97 6 speeds. The 93-97 you want it with the LT1 for sure. Automatic or manual is a personal preference. They sound badass with a catback exhaust. Typical American muscle sounding car. In that car i did 14.2 at 99 MPH at Englishtown NJ Raceway Park.

Now for the beast. My 99 WS6. Monster!! That car I had to replace the intake as well but had it done under warranty. Other than that no issues with that car. Definitely get the TransAm with the LS1. Incredibly scary fast! I did 13.3 at 108 mph!! Bone stock except for Mobil 1 oil. No heating up the tires with a burnout, no power shifting and a shitty 60ft time!! Absolutely a 12 second car if i wanted to do it.But I didn't want to thrash the car. At the very end of the 1/4 mile I'm just shifting it into 4th gear!! Amazing!! Actually for the last year in 2002 they increased the HP with a better exhaust manifold.

As far as the Camaro's go. It's the sister car. same exact mechanically just different interior. It's also a little lighter and typically a little faster. the 3rd generation IROC was a little faster because it had dual air cleaners where as the firebird had the single going off to the side. The Formula was the lighter one for the Firebird and competed better against the Camaro. Same thing with the Camaro in the 3rd generation. You want the 89-92 model years in the IROC/Z28 with the 350. For the 93 -2002 years. No difference really. Just a matter of personal preference.
 
I can tell you for sure, that you will not have problems finding repair parts. As for performance parts - you will be impressed to see that most of the aftermarket manufacturers still have a huge range of products for these models, and I am talking about air intakes, exhaust, fuel delivery, transmission, programmers (for later models), suspension and many more. It means that you don't have to bother with custom fabrication unless you have passion for it.
 
I can tell you for sure, that you will not have problems finding repair parts. As for performance parts - you will be impressed to see that most of the aftermarket manufacturers still have a huge range of products for these models, and I am talking about air intakes, exhaust, fuel delivery, transmission, programmers (for later models), suspension and many more. It means that you don't have to bother with custom fabrication unless you have passion for it.


Well said, yet some parts on some of these cars have proven to be tough to obtain. picking the right year car that is popular enough and collectible many times is the key to getting each and every part you may need one day.
 
Have owned a cpl T/As 1 being a 88 GTA/WS6 Had bad paint so i stripped it and primed and blocked it and blocked the clear and it was like glass. Car wasnt anything like my big block camaro but handled unreal. Was like riding on rails. Car was low miles (40k) with digital dash and sold for 2500.oo. Biggest mistake hands down i ever did with any of the cars i ever owned. Find a clean GTA 5.7 or Formula 350 with the WS6 package and you will love the way it handles with enough performance for everyday stop and go driving. Hint...stay out of the rain and snow.
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