hey guys,,my gta wont start...fuel pump not working,,,so i'm thinking it could be the relay..i don't here it kicking on. the only thing is that I don't know where it is and what it looks like..I've seen 2 pictures of it when looking them up online at autozone and advance auto,,,and they are completely different..One is square with 4 prongs and the other is skinny and long with four prongs..i'm guessing its gotta be on the firewall but I looked and there are three relays on there and nothing is marked...any help would be greatly appreciated...by the way my gta only has 20,000 miles on it and garaged kept, so i'm hoping its not the fuel pump...
fuel pump not working... HELP PLEASE
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EaOutlaw
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before you jump into this head first and start frantically buying parts to fix your ride.
How long have you owned this car?
Tell us what steps have you taken to determine the fuel pump or fuel pump relay is not working?
Have you performed any diagnostics?
Do you own a factory service manual?
Do you own any diagnostic tools?
How many miles on your 1987 Pontiac Trans am GTA
Does it have a factory or aftermarket alarm system?
Do you have a fuel pressure test kit?
Do you have a Code scanner with semi live data?
The more information you provide the more willing myself and others will be to help you, above and beyond the simple question you asked.
The reason for this line of questions is normally when your car will not start because of a fuel related issue it is normally not a bad relay.
More common problems would be a bad fuel pump, a rotten fuel line that attaches the pump to the assembly inside the tank, and very common your car may just be out of gas with a faulty gauge showing fuel still in the tank.
How long have you owned this car?
Tell us what steps have you taken to determine the fuel pump or fuel pump relay is not working?
Have you performed any diagnostics?
Do you own a factory service manual?
Do you own any diagnostic tools?
How many miles on your 1987 Pontiac Trans am GTA
Does it have a factory or aftermarket alarm system?
Do you have a fuel pressure test kit?
Do you have a Code scanner with semi live data?
The more information you provide the more willing myself and others will be to help you, above and beyond the simple question you asked.
The reason for this line of questions is normally when your car will not start because of a fuel related issue it is normally not a bad relay.
More common problems would be a bad fuel pump, a rotten fuel line that attaches the pump to the assembly inside the tank, and very common your car may just be out of gas with a faulty gauge showing fuel still in the tank.
i'm the original owner, 20,001 miles, I haven't done any diagnostics because the fuel pump just quit working...I don't hear it kick on when I turn the ignition on. the whole dashboard is digitial and the fuel guage has never given a false reading. I do have a factory service manual for a 86 firebird,,,which is pretty much the same..i have a mutt but don't have the cartridge for a Pontiac.i don't have a pressure test kit but I do know that there is no fuel pressure. I wish I had an OBD1 scanner because my check engine light is on.
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EaOutlaw
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Ok time to get old school on this car, no need for a scan tool to check codes, simply use a paper clip on the ALDL connector under the drivers side of the dash,
Pretend this connector looks looks a top hat, you will see two rows of connectors the bottom side will have two plastic tabs that stick out preventing a scan tool to be plugged in incorrectly. I mention this because sometime this connector is mounted sideways.
Take the paper clip and short out the top two connectors on the right side then turn the key on.
If you need a diagram you should find one in the factory manual or just ask and I will find one for you.
The check engine light will start to flash, the first code you get will be a code 12 which just means the car is not running.
You will see the light flash once then pause then flash twice quickly. it will do this three times.
Then if you have any codes they will show up after the code 12. once it flashes all the codes it will start this all over again.
To avoid confusion turn the key off then back on and double check the codes to insure you wrote them down correctly.
Once you have the code or codes post them here and we will try to help.
Just because the pump doesn't work it doesn't mean any particular part is bad it means you need to diagnose the problem,
If I remember correctly the fuel tank on those cars really suck to pull out so I cant blame you for wanting it to be a bad relay.
look at the manual you do have, and find the color wire feeding the fuel pump.
Check for voltage at that wire as close as you can at the fuel tank using a 12 volt test light or a DVOM.
You will need to have someone turn the key on for you. because the fuel pump will only come on for a few seconds with the key on engine off,and it should come on while cranking the engine over.
If you have power going to the tank your going have to pull the tank to inspect the pump and test it off the car.
Many things on your car can take out the fuel pressure, so before you get too carried away.
See what if anything else your missing to make the car run. for example is spark getting to the spark plugs?
If not you have a central problem effecting both fuel and spark.
This is where I would start to look closer at the ignition switch, you have a few items that would kill both fuel pressure and spark
First and pretty common to fail is the electronic part of the ignition switch mounted mid way down on the steering column under the dash.
This switch has a metal body that is crimped onto a plastic housing where all the wires connect.
The metal housing is known to separate from the plastic housing when the grease in the switch dries up creating too much friction which causes too much force to be applied to the four metal tabs that are bent over securing the two pieces together.
Once this switch separates partially the engine will normally crank over yet no power will make it to other parts of the car the gets power from the ignition switch. normally when this happens weird symptoms develop like intermittent a/c radio and other electrical gremlins appear and disappear.
However since you have a factory service manual you have all the information and diagnostic flow charts to troubleshoot a no start symptom.
The second part of the ignition switch system that can drive techs nuts is the key and tumbler that has the anti theft chip built into the key.
However I have only seen a few of these cause problems over the years, If I was you I would pull the codes and lets see if it could be related to a no start issue.
The ignition switch I mentioned may ring a bell if you noticed the key being unusually hard to turn. but this happens so slowly over time you may not have not noticed it getting harder and harder to turn over the years.
Again I wouldn't jump to any conclusions you have a very nice desirable one owner car. it is worth taking your time and diagnosing it correctly.
It is always best to follow the diagnostic flow chart, time to blow off the dust of that great manual you have.
It is worth mentioning if the fuel pump is the original pump or a old pump even if it is not the problem you will want to get a fuel pressure test kit from Napa or Auto Zone tool loaner program. where you pay for a used tool, use it then return it when your done for a full refund or keep it if you have a use for it.
Test the pressure and watch for leak down. the rubber hose in the tank connecting the pump to the rail is bound to be dry rotted by now especially rotted if you have been getting the crappy blend fuel that is available today.
I hope some of this helps let me know if I can do anything further.
Pretend this connector looks looks a top hat, you will see two rows of connectors the bottom side will have two plastic tabs that stick out preventing a scan tool to be plugged in incorrectly. I mention this because sometime this connector is mounted sideways.
Take the paper clip and short out the top two connectors on the right side then turn the key on.
If you need a diagram you should find one in the factory manual or just ask and I will find one for you.
The check engine light will start to flash, the first code you get will be a code 12 which just means the car is not running.
You will see the light flash once then pause then flash twice quickly. it will do this three times.
Then if you have any codes they will show up after the code 12. once it flashes all the codes it will start this all over again.
To avoid confusion turn the key off then back on and double check the codes to insure you wrote them down correctly.
Once you have the code or codes post them here and we will try to help.
Just because the pump doesn't work it doesn't mean any particular part is bad it means you need to diagnose the problem,
If I remember correctly the fuel tank on those cars really suck to pull out so I cant blame you for wanting it to be a bad relay.
look at the manual you do have, and find the color wire feeding the fuel pump.
Check for voltage at that wire as close as you can at the fuel tank using a 12 volt test light or a DVOM.
You will need to have someone turn the key on for you. because the fuel pump will only come on for a few seconds with the key on engine off,and it should come on while cranking the engine over.
If you have power going to the tank your going have to pull the tank to inspect the pump and test it off the car.
Many things on your car can take out the fuel pressure, so before you get too carried away.
See what if anything else your missing to make the car run. for example is spark getting to the spark plugs?
If not you have a central problem effecting both fuel and spark.
This is where I would start to look closer at the ignition switch, you have a few items that would kill both fuel pressure and spark
First and pretty common to fail is the electronic part of the ignition switch mounted mid way down on the steering column under the dash.
This switch has a metal body that is crimped onto a plastic housing where all the wires connect.
The metal housing is known to separate from the plastic housing when the grease in the switch dries up creating too much friction which causes too much force to be applied to the four metal tabs that are bent over securing the two pieces together.
Once this switch separates partially the engine will normally crank over yet no power will make it to other parts of the car the gets power from the ignition switch. normally when this happens weird symptoms develop like intermittent a/c radio and other electrical gremlins appear and disappear.
However since you have a factory service manual you have all the information and diagnostic flow charts to troubleshoot a no start symptom.
The second part of the ignition switch system that can drive techs nuts is the key and tumbler that has the anti theft chip built into the key.
However I have only seen a few of these cause problems over the years, If I was you I would pull the codes and lets see if it could be related to a no start issue.
The ignition switch I mentioned may ring a bell if you noticed the key being unusually hard to turn. but this happens so slowly over time you may not have not noticed it getting harder and harder to turn over the years.
Again I wouldn't jump to any conclusions you have a very nice desirable one owner car. it is worth taking your time and diagnosing it correctly.
It is always best to follow the diagnostic flow chart, time to blow off the dust of that great manual you have.
It is worth mentioning if the fuel pump is the original pump or a old pump even if it is not the problem you will want to get a fuel pressure test kit from Napa or Auto Zone tool loaner program. where you pay for a used tool, use it then return it when your done for a full refund or keep it if you have a use for it.
Test the pressure and watch for leak down. the rubber hose in the tank connecting the pump to the rail is bound to be dry rotted by now especially rotted if you have been getting the crappy blend fuel that is available today.
I hope some of this helps let me know if I can do anything further.
ok EAOUTLAW,,, I did the paper clip thing and all it did was blink code 12 atleast a dozen times and I just happened to look at the dash and noticed that it said service engine..so i'm guessing no codes...I have a friend that has a pressure tester and will be checking that first..as far as the connection on the steering column,,,it seems to be fine..but I know about them gremlins,,,ran across them quite a few times...the service manual shows 3 relays on the firewall next to the brake booster and they show that the middle one is the fuel pump relay but the one in the middle on my car says maf relay..so I don't know if the manual is correct because the other 2 don't say anything.. I thought that I could somehow jump the relay just to do a process of elimination..but as I said earlier,, two different parts stores showed 2 different relays...(one square and one skinny one). there is what seems to be a relay on the left just above the wheel on the fender which has 2 plugs going into a square box which has a ground screwed to the fender,,but the wires don't match up with anything on the schematics..there is no mention of purple wires at all..but there are orange,green,red wires on it. thanks so much for your replies and I will let you know what I find out...my birthday is tomorrow,,turning 50 and the wife said that the car isn't to be touched until sunday..haha
EaOutlaw
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Happy birthday. when your wife allows, LOL check for spark to make sure you are just dealing with a fuel pressure problem only.
I would avoid jumping wires at the relay for now you do not want to cause more problems for yourself.
The relay cover if it still has one should be labeled showing what relay goes to what part. the MAF is for the Mass Air Flow Sensor. if your eye sight has gone south like mine use your cell phone to zoom in and take pictures of what may be hard to read otherwise.
if you cannot identify what relay does what, sign up to a subscription to Alldata DIY. this way you do not have to wait for a out of date factory service manual arrive from wherever you may find one for sale.
http://www.alldatadiy.com/?at=ra&siteID=XKiyX8ZknCA-lZiZ0vTf8zo1bnoj8_31RQ&ls_affid=XKiyX8ZknCA
Using Alldata you will know for sure you have the correct information with all the factory service bulletins and factory recalls, diagnostic flow charts wiring diagrams ETC.
It is pretty cheap for a one year subscription, since you have a one owner car that you purchased new I am sure you will not be selling your car anytime soon you may as well go for the 5 year plan.
Key tools you will want to quickly diagnose a no start problem that are inexpensive to buy are, A DVOM, A 12 volt computer safe test light, a set of Noid lights. and a accurate up to date service manual. they even have a Jumper key for checking the codes you can hang off of your key chain.
For your car a Mutt tester like you mentioned is good but a older Snap on scanner with the troubleshooter cartridge that covers your year make model car can be picked up inexpensively also.
If I remember correctly the snap on scanner will allow you to activate and test many parts controlled by the computer.
Since it is your Birthday now is the time to get away with some tool purchases.
Harbor freight can be a decent source for some of these tools inexpensively if you are on a tight budget, watch for the sales.
For now we can get by with basic tools and a little help from me and others on this forum. and of course the WWW
the Factory manual you have may be great for information on rebuilding the engine, or installing brakes servicing the Air conditioner, but the 1980s GM computer system and electronics were evolving every year so you cannot trust that the one year difference wont lead you down the wrong path.
A no start condition on your one owner unmolested low mileage car should be easy and fast to accurately diagnose.
Things get complicated and potentially expensive if the diagnosis process is started at the wrong spot.
Jumping the connectors trying to get a fuel pump to work even if you have the correct wire could lead to a damaged ECM especially if your dealing with a fuel pump that has shorted to ground.
Even if you get lucky find the connector at the relay to apply power to, get the car running.
This doesn't mean the relay is bad. so you really learned nothing about the problem other than eliminating the fuel pump from the no start equation.
So you would still be just hanging parts on your car in hopes the part cures it.
Process of elimination is a OK way of doing things if you have no other choice. but you do have the resources at your finger tips to do the job right.
learn more about your car and how to properly diagnose your car.
I would give you different advice if your car had 300000 miles and had 12 owners.
I know what you want is for there to be a easy plug and play solution to cure your car, who doesn't. it may be just that easy to fix it.
However that kind of work I didn't do when I was a technician and I cannot offer anything other than guidance steering you down the path of a complete and accurate diagnosis.
Short of all this, buy the fuel pump relay if your not sure which one, buy them both. install them cross your fingers and hope for the best.
I am willing to bet, you love your car enough to take your time and diagnose it while your gaining valuable tools and knowledge along the way.
Right now your fuel pump system is a mystery on exactly how it works, I promise you, if you do what I suggest you will know more about your car than any hack parts hanger you could bring your car to at well over 100 bucks an hour.
If any or all of what I have to offer is just too much for your time and patience to deal with feel free to let me know and I will no longer respond.
I am disabled and no longer have a busy life to deal with, so I have all the time in the world to help.
Yet I understand you have a busy life and may not have the time, space or money to deal with this situation the way I would.
I would not be offended if you said Thanks but no thanks and you waited for others to help you in the way you need.
Again Happy Birthday and I hope some of this information proves useful.
I would avoid jumping wires at the relay for now you do not want to cause more problems for yourself.
The relay cover if it still has one should be labeled showing what relay goes to what part. the MAF is for the Mass Air Flow Sensor. if your eye sight has gone south like mine use your cell phone to zoom in and take pictures of what may be hard to read otherwise.
if you cannot identify what relay does what, sign up to a subscription to Alldata DIY. this way you do not have to wait for a out of date factory service manual arrive from wherever you may find one for sale.
http://www.alldatadiy.com/?at=ra&siteID=XKiyX8ZknCA-lZiZ0vTf8zo1bnoj8_31RQ&ls_affid=XKiyX8ZknCA
Using Alldata you will know for sure you have the correct information with all the factory service bulletins and factory recalls, diagnostic flow charts wiring diagrams ETC.
It is pretty cheap for a one year subscription, since you have a one owner car that you purchased new I am sure you will not be selling your car anytime soon you may as well go for the 5 year plan.
Key tools you will want to quickly diagnose a no start problem that are inexpensive to buy are, A DVOM, A 12 volt computer safe test light, a set of Noid lights. and a accurate up to date service manual. they even have a Jumper key for checking the codes you can hang off of your key chain.
For your car a Mutt tester like you mentioned is good but a older Snap on scanner with the troubleshooter cartridge that covers your year make model car can be picked up inexpensively also.
If I remember correctly the snap on scanner will allow you to activate and test many parts controlled by the computer.
Since it is your Birthday now is the time to get away with some tool purchases.
Harbor freight can be a decent source for some of these tools inexpensively if you are on a tight budget, watch for the sales.
For now we can get by with basic tools and a little help from me and others on this forum. and of course the WWW
the Factory manual you have may be great for information on rebuilding the engine, or installing brakes servicing the Air conditioner, but the 1980s GM computer system and electronics were evolving every year so you cannot trust that the one year difference wont lead you down the wrong path.
A no start condition on your one owner unmolested low mileage car should be easy and fast to accurately diagnose.
Things get complicated and potentially expensive if the diagnosis process is started at the wrong spot.
Jumping the connectors trying to get a fuel pump to work even if you have the correct wire could lead to a damaged ECM especially if your dealing with a fuel pump that has shorted to ground.
Even if you get lucky find the connector at the relay to apply power to, get the car running.
This doesn't mean the relay is bad. so you really learned nothing about the problem other than eliminating the fuel pump from the no start equation.
So you would still be just hanging parts on your car in hopes the part cures it.
Process of elimination is a OK way of doing things if you have no other choice. but you do have the resources at your finger tips to do the job right.
learn more about your car and how to properly diagnose your car.
I would give you different advice if your car had 300000 miles and had 12 owners.
I know what you want is for there to be a easy plug and play solution to cure your car, who doesn't. it may be just that easy to fix it.
However that kind of work I didn't do when I was a technician and I cannot offer anything other than guidance steering you down the path of a complete and accurate diagnosis.
Short of all this, buy the fuel pump relay if your not sure which one, buy them both. install them cross your fingers and hope for the best.
I am willing to bet, you love your car enough to take your time and diagnose it while your gaining valuable tools and knowledge along the way.
Right now your fuel pump system is a mystery on exactly how it works, I promise you, if you do what I suggest you will know more about your car than any hack parts hanger you could bring your car to at well over 100 bucks an hour.
If any or all of what I have to offer is just too much for your time and patience to deal with feel free to let me know and I will no longer respond.
I am disabled and no longer have a busy life to deal with, so I have all the time in the world to help.
Yet I understand you have a busy life and may not have the time, space or money to deal with this situation the way I would.
I would not be offended if you said Thanks but no thanks and you waited for others to help you in the way you need.
Again Happy Birthday and I hope some of this information proves useful.
I will be taking your advice...you sound like a very intelligent and wise man..so what i'm going to do is exactly what you say...this car has been garaged kept under blankets and car covers all of its life..it's almost in showroom condition and you can eat off of the motor...the last thing I want to do is take the wrong path and screw something up..we have a harbor freight near where I live, but have never been there..i'm gonna have to check it out for a scanner. I've got a snap-on scanner OBD2 for my other vehicles..i think there are scanners that have adapters to hook up to OBD1...by the way,,did a pressure test and no pressure..
thank you again EAOUTLAW for your replies...very helpful
thank you again EAOUTLAW for your replies...very helpful
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EaOutlaw
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Thank you for your compliment, I do not consider myself Wise or Well educated.
In my mind I am passionate about cars and helping others. I am very well seasoned on many years makes and models cars.
The kind of help I am capable of providing is not what most people want or expect when reaching out for help. In fact some people get offended because some of the things I suggest may seem to them that I view them in a certain way, this couldn't be further from the truth.
When I take the time to write a response to someones request for help I know it will not just be the OP that will be reading what I write.
It may be a new and upcoming tech that struggles with their inner demons telling them to just hang a part on a car instead of diagnosing it.
When they spent their customers money for nothing then they have to lie and get more money from that customer just to hang another part on a car.
It is a sad fact that most people that come on to a forum only do so because they have encountered a problem on their car, they think they can quickly scroll through the pages in the forum find their symptom and easy solution.
Yet much of what you will find online in forums and in Videos found on YouTube and other sources online are posted by people that are not well trained or willing to take or show the necessary steps that have been pounded into me and millions of qualified technicians over years through specific training classes. and years of hands on experience.
It is one thing when a car has a commonly known factory short coming for an experienced technician to take a short cut, by informing their customer that this short cut may save on diagnostic time by trying a known easy solution, warning them that this short cut may just lead to a new improved part found by researching the Factory service bulletins being installed and possibly not fixing the problem.
Usually when a person resorts to coming here for help, they are like many of us that live pay check to pay check. they are not in a position to pay hundreds of dollars to a stranger to find out what is wrong with their car and have to trust in the company to not only be honest with the diagnostics they claim to have done, but also be honest and about what repairs they have completed. As we all know finding anyone completely honest these days is like finding a Unicorn and a field of Golden nuggets. It just doesn't happen.
You normally find either a Honest shop with greedy lazy technicians or you find a crooked shop with a few honest technicians that will do what they can to find a balance between making a happy customer and keeping their job.
When I used to work on cars for a living I lost count of the jobs I had to quit because of a crooked owners or managers that wanted me to clean a part instead of replacing it. they always charged for replacing it.
I am not saying I was a perfect angel during my career, there was many lines that I had to cross that I wish I didn't just to keep food on my families table.
An example of this would be when I worked for Mitsubishi, A common problem found on the 1998 and up Montero Sport was a oil leak that would drip oil on the exhaust system.
This was normally caused by a known bad choice for o ring material on the rear camshaft covers.
The job really only took 1/2 hour yet the shop would bill for book time which was much more. An obnoxious amount of money was billed to the customer or the factory if it was a warranty job.
Like any discrepancy I reported the error in the factory service manual to the factory for a correction to be made.
Yet Mitsubishi in not so many words told me to keep my mouth shut or find another job.
So I did what they asked for a few years until it started to change who I was.
Instead of concentrating on the job at hand and doing it right, I was consumed with doing as many of these quick easy gravy jobs ignoring the
the needed work that took longer and paid less.
When I looked in the mirror one day I hated the person I became, this is when I called a tow truck had them pick up my tools and sent them to my house. from that day forward I never picked up a wrench for a living again.
The worse part of it all I ended up working for the local government, only to find out I went from the frying pan to the fire.
the injuries that took me out of the work force altogether is a blessing in disguise, sure I am in a lot of pain and I have no life.
But I never have to see myself like I did in that mirror that day I realized I was no better than anyone in jail for stealing or robing people.
I go out of my way to help others now, in some way it helps me try and forgive myself for the things I chose to do when knew better.
The life experiences I have been through I am sure are no different than anyone else's. perhaps a different environment with the same nasty outcome where the person giving you a hug is either picking your pocket or using a handheld device to scan your credit cards.
The sad fact is the world we live in just plain sucks.
In my mind I am passionate about cars and helping others. I am very well seasoned on many years makes and models cars.
The kind of help I am capable of providing is not what most people want or expect when reaching out for help. In fact some people get offended because some of the things I suggest may seem to them that I view them in a certain way, this couldn't be further from the truth.
When I take the time to write a response to someones request for help I know it will not just be the OP that will be reading what I write.
It may be a new and upcoming tech that struggles with their inner demons telling them to just hang a part on a car instead of diagnosing it.
When they spent their customers money for nothing then they have to lie and get more money from that customer just to hang another part on a car.
It is a sad fact that most people that come on to a forum only do so because they have encountered a problem on their car, they think they can quickly scroll through the pages in the forum find their symptom and easy solution.
Yet much of what you will find online in forums and in Videos found on YouTube and other sources online are posted by people that are not well trained or willing to take or show the necessary steps that have been pounded into me and millions of qualified technicians over years through specific training classes. and years of hands on experience.
It is one thing when a car has a commonly known factory short coming for an experienced technician to take a short cut, by informing their customer that this short cut may save on diagnostic time by trying a known easy solution, warning them that this short cut may just lead to a new improved part found by researching the Factory service bulletins being installed and possibly not fixing the problem.
Usually when a person resorts to coming here for help, they are like many of us that live pay check to pay check. they are not in a position to pay hundreds of dollars to a stranger to find out what is wrong with their car and have to trust in the company to not only be honest with the diagnostics they claim to have done, but also be honest and about what repairs they have completed. As we all know finding anyone completely honest these days is like finding a Unicorn and a field of Golden nuggets. It just doesn't happen.
You normally find either a Honest shop with greedy lazy technicians or you find a crooked shop with a few honest technicians that will do what they can to find a balance between making a happy customer and keeping their job.
When I used to work on cars for a living I lost count of the jobs I had to quit because of a crooked owners or managers that wanted me to clean a part instead of replacing it. they always charged for replacing it.
I am not saying I was a perfect angel during my career, there was many lines that I had to cross that I wish I didn't just to keep food on my families table.
An example of this would be when I worked for Mitsubishi, A common problem found on the 1998 and up Montero Sport was a oil leak that would drip oil on the exhaust system.
This was normally caused by a known bad choice for o ring material on the rear camshaft covers.
The job really only took 1/2 hour yet the shop would bill for book time which was much more. An obnoxious amount of money was billed to the customer or the factory if it was a warranty job.
Like any discrepancy I reported the error in the factory service manual to the factory for a correction to be made.
Yet Mitsubishi in not so many words told me to keep my mouth shut or find another job.
So I did what they asked for a few years until it started to change who I was.
Instead of concentrating on the job at hand and doing it right, I was consumed with doing as many of these quick easy gravy jobs ignoring the
the needed work that took longer and paid less.
When I looked in the mirror one day I hated the person I became, this is when I called a tow truck had them pick up my tools and sent them to my house. from that day forward I never picked up a wrench for a living again.
The worse part of it all I ended up working for the local government, only to find out I went from the frying pan to the fire.
the injuries that took me out of the work force altogether is a blessing in disguise, sure I am in a lot of pain and I have no life.
But I never have to see myself like I did in that mirror that day I realized I was no better than anyone in jail for stealing or robing people.
I go out of my way to help others now, in some way it helps me try and forgive myself for the things I chose to do when knew better.
The life experiences I have been through I am sure are no different than anyone else's. perhaps a different environment with the same nasty outcome where the person giving you a hug is either picking your pocket or using a handheld device to scan your credit cards.
The sad fact is the world we live in just plain sucks.
as a matter of fact,,i have a 97 Montero sport xls that had the same problem with the O-rings after they said it was my valve cover gaskets. so I had them replace the gaskets, paid the bill and went on my way for about a week and then back to the shop for oil still leaking and then they said it was the O-rings..had to pay again...never going back to them for work... anyways...I don't know if I should have done this but,,,i swapped the 2 relays that had the same numbers on the top and it didn't make a difference.. I'm guessing they were the fuel pump relay and the maf burn off relay..wife says if I want to go tool shopping,, I can...she see's me getting frustrated...haha
EaOutlaw
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Sorry to hear about the Mitsubishi Issue, I just hope they used better quality than factory o-rings. If I remember correctly back in the day they were getting like 8 hours labor plus part to change them out. New factory o-rings would leak after a few years if that.
Swapping relays shouldn't have hurt anything, but if the fuel pump relay was bad and you put in to operate the mass air flow sensor the car wouldn't run. but you probably would have heard the fuel pump come to life if the relay was the problem.
Have you figured out if you have spark yet? You just need to pull a plug wire stick in a number two screw driver in place of the plug and hold the screw driver by the handle close to a ground to see if you get spark while someone cranks the engine over for you.
If you have spark, count on just having a bad pump and plan financially to replace the entire fuel pump assembly with the fuel level sending unit pump and screen if it is still available as a complete unit. plus put in a new fuel filter.
The fuel pump is a hard job and not one you want to re do because you didn't replace a part while you were in there.
If at all possible use a factory AC Delco part the one in your car lasted this long the new one will do the same. I cannot say the same thing for an aftermarket part made in China.
The only factory parts I found for your car on the GM site is for the Fuel pump and fuel cap So if you want the entire assembly you will have to find a NOS part somewhere or just take your time and clean and service what you have. The factory pump is pretty cheap just over 70 bucks.
Partsgeek has a nice Doorman sending unit assembly combined with a factory fuel pump and strainer you shouldn't have to worry about the fuel tank for a while
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1987/pontiac/firebird/fuel_delivery/fuel_level_sending_unit.html
strainer or screen
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1987/pontiac/firebird/fuel_delivery/fuel_screen.html
Doorman fuel tank if needed
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1987/pontiac/firebird/fuel_delivery/fuel_tank.html
Do not trust the part numbers I found these are just examples of pricing I did look it up for your car but Do not just go by my list check the part numbers for yourself.
Also do your best to find A/C Delco NOS (new old Stock) parts you may get lucky
to make the job easier buy a siphon hose with a rattle check valve like this one, it can be picked up at pep boys or other Auto parts places.
http://www.amazon.com/Hopkins-10801-FloTool-Shaker-Anti-Static/dp/B000EH0ORI
I forgot to mention with your car being so old, and so few miles have you smelled the fuel in the tank? does it smell horrible like rotten stale fuel?
if you haven't been putting fuel stabilizer in it like sta-bil?
http://www.amazon.com/STA-BIL-22214-Fuel-Stabilizer-oz/dp/B000B68V6I
the fuel could have gotten stale losing its octane rating and breaking down, simply running it and keeping the tank topped of will only help some.
For now if you do find out you have to pull the tank and replace the pump, do not reuse the old fuel. when you install a new pump only add 5-6 gallons of new fuel with a full bottle of Chevron Techtron
http://www.amazon.com/Chevron-10055...&keywords=chevron+techron+fuel+system+cleaner
Run the car until you nearly empty the tank then refill it with new fuel and Sta bil or something similar of your choice.
have you been changing the fluids every year or two if it needs it or not?
the oil in the engine can become acidic after some time, I am not sure how long this takes but you may be able to keep up with this by testing the ph of the new oil you use in your car then compare it to what is in your car.
Or just change it once a year at least. even if you do not drive the car.
I wrote all this down, to help you decide to invest in tools or save your money for parts. The more information you give me about what works and what doesn't we may be able to come up with a pretty good educated guess of what to replace , if it is not in your budget to buy tools and the parts you may need.
Swapping relays shouldn't have hurt anything, but if the fuel pump relay was bad and you put in to operate the mass air flow sensor the car wouldn't run. but you probably would have heard the fuel pump come to life if the relay was the problem.
Have you figured out if you have spark yet? You just need to pull a plug wire stick in a number two screw driver in place of the plug and hold the screw driver by the handle close to a ground to see if you get spark while someone cranks the engine over for you.
If you have spark, count on just having a bad pump and plan financially to replace the entire fuel pump assembly with the fuel level sending unit pump and screen if it is still available as a complete unit. plus put in a new fuel filter.
The fuel pump is a hard job and not one you want to re do because you didn't replace a part while you were in there.
If at all possible use a factory AC Delco part the one in your car lasted this long the new one will do the same. I cannot say the same thing for an aftermarket part made in China.
The only factory parts I found for your car on the GM site is for the Fuel pump and fuel cap So if you want the entire assembly you will have to find a NOS part somewhere or just take your time and clean and service what you have. The factory pump is pretty cheap just over 70 bucks.
Partsgeek has a nice Doorman sending unit assembly combined with a factory fuel pump and strainer you shouldn't have to worry about the fuel tank for a while
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1987/pontiac/firebird/fuel_delivery/fuel_level_sending_unit.html
strainer or screen
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1987/pontiac/firebird/fuel_delivery/fuel_screen.html
Doorman fuel tank if needed
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1987/pontiac/firebird/fuel_delivery/fuel_tank.html
Do not trust the part numbers I found these are just examples of pricing I did look it up for your car but Do not just go by my list check the part numbers for yourself.
Also do your best to find A/C Delco NOS (new old Stock) parts you may get lucky
to make the job easier buy a siphon hose with a rattle check valve like this one, it can be picked up at pep boys or other Auto parts places.
http://www.amazon.com/Hopkins-10801-FloTool-Shaker-Anti-Static/dp/B000EH0ORI
I forgot to mention with your car being so old, and so few miles have you smelled the fuel in the tank? does it smell horrible like rotten stale fuel?
if you haven't been putting fuel stabilizer in it like sta-bil?
http://www.amazon.com/STA-BIL-22214-Fuel-Stabilizer-oz/dp/B000B68V6I
the fuel could have gotten stale losing its octane rating and breaking down, simply running it and keeping the tank topped of will only help some.
For now if you do find out you have to pull the tank and replace the pump, do not reuse the old fuel. when you install a new pump only add 5-6 gallons of new fuel with a full bottle of Chevron Techtron
http://www.amazon.com/Chevron-10055...&keywords=chevron+techron+fuel+system+cleaner
Run the car until you nearly empty the tank then refill it with new fuel and Sta bil or something similar of your choice.
have you been changing the fluids every year or two if it needs it or not?
the oil in the engine can become acidic after some time, I am not sure how long this takes but you may be able to keep up with this by testing the ph of the new oil you use in your car then compare it to what is in your car.
Or just change it once a year at least. even if you do not drive the car.
I wrote all this down, to help you decide to invest in tools or save your money for parts. The more information you give me about what works and what doesn't we may be able to come up with a pretty good educated guess of what to replace , if it is not in your budget to buy tools and the parts you may need.
haven't checked for spark yet..decided not to work on it today..wife wants to spend time together,,so that's what I'm doing..as far as the fuel,,,i do put stabil in it,,I also use bg 44k..that stuff is awesome. to replace the fuel pump,it looks like i'll have to cut the exhaust off.."original" cause i'm sure you know its all welded..also might have to drop the rear because of clearance issues of the tank..hope not..
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EaOutlaw
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If I remember correctly the exhaust can be removed from the cat back in one piece, but your right the rear will have to be dropped to pull that off.
maybe you can talk your wife or friends into helping you under the car with the exhaust it would be a shame to have to cut it after all these years.
The factory manual you have would you show you step by step procedures.
EaOutlaw
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Yes I believe the OP is getting a few diagnostic tools to continue testing this problem. he is not sure if he is missing spark or injector pulse or who knows what else just yet. the only thing he knows for sure is he doesn't hear the fuel pump and confirmed no fuel pressure.
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Hopefully a blown fuse has been checked for
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Zimgxp
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To figure out which relay is the fuel pump, look in the service manual for the color of the wires for the relay
EaOutlaw
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The OP has a factory manual but is one year older the wiring inst matching up nor does the relay locations. Maybe someone here has access to a Manual that works for his car
EaOutlaw
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I do not think this has been addressed yet or at least he has not mentioned it.
good morning everyone...I looked for blown fuses in the fuse block under the dash..none.. there is a fuse under the hood right beside the radiator, don't know what it leads to, but one wire goes to the battery + and the other one I haven't been able to see where it goes. anyways that fuse is good..there isn't any other fuses under the hood that I can see..Like my other car there is a fuse block under the hood..