More questions about security and starting Grand Am 2004

[tjodork]

I have a 2004 Grand Am V6 SE.
The car would crank a bit but not start ...sure seemed like the Passlock issue.
However when I looked, the security light was not on after several tries to start car.

I took it to a shop and the guy thought I needed a chip key. I brought the Pontiac key (vs Ace Hardware $3 one) and when I got there ...the security light was on.

He said he just needed to power on for 10 mins and it would go off. When it eventually went off the car would still not start. He claims that he traced it back to the PCM and said that the output driver was bad and that that's why it would try to start for 2 secs and then cut out.

He said my options were a new PCM ($500) or wire a switch to the starter relay. I chose that. So I would need to try and start, when it cut out after the 2 seconds, I would put the pushbutton and the car would start.

When I went to pick it up, I tried what he said and it did work, HOWEVER, the security light is on solid....which he did not warn me about. Note the car does start per his instructions.

So here are my questions (I'm sorry for so many- i have read as a lot first)
1. Is it likely that the PCM is bad ?
2. Why is the security light on ?
3. I asked him about installing the Berger fix but he said there were NO wires coming from the steering wheel as shown on this page http://www.bergerweb.net/PasslockFix/
4. I have looked at the schematics for the starter and it seems that the only thing in the way of the ignition key to starter relay is the Park/Neutral switch so I am confused how the PCM can stop the starter motor after 2 seconds or additionally how can the passlock stop the starter motor.

thank you for any help !
Tim

 

[tjodork]

sorry, i found the schematic that shows the PCM involvement - see attached..... so I understand that the PCM could affect this.

I still have almost the same questions though
1. Is it likely that the PCM is bad ?
2. Why is the security light on ?
3. I asked him about installing the Berger fix but he said there were NO wires coming from the steering wheel as shown on this page http://www.bergerweb.net/PasslockFix/
4. is there a good chance that there is nothing wrong with computer but what he saw (it stopping after 2 seconds) is not bad output modules but the computer just stopping after a couple of seconds due to a security issue and can it be some other security issue besides passlock ?

 

[melsg5]

The first statement about "crank a bit" sounds nothing like a security problem. That sounds like a bad starter, starter solenoid, ignition switch or bad electrical connection.
1. Obviously over the internet the only guess is based on probability but I doubt it is the PCM
2. The security light is on because the sensor in the ignition switch is not recognizing the key.
3. did you read the article yourself?, the wires are coming from the ignition switch it only mentions something about towards the direction of the steering wheel nothing about wires coming from the steering wheel
4. Passlock does not stop the starter motor read my first comments.

 

[tjodork]

Thanks for the reply!

since the pushbutton starts the car, I think the starter and solenoid are not an issue...

Based on the fact that he checked that the output from the PCM pulls to ground for 2 seconds and then stops ....the only question is whether its due to a bad output or due to computer control

since the security light is ON, I would think due to computer control.....

I did read the article, I guess I should have said ignition switch not steering wheel....but the guy said there were no such wires near ignition switch.... I guess I will have to open up and relook

Why do you say the passlock will not stop the starter motor? Doesn't the computer look at that and turn OFF the output that grounds the starter motor relay?
If not, what does the passlock turn off so the car cannot be stolen ?

Thanks again for any help !

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[tjodork]

so I found why the security light was on...someone put a 22 ohm resistor in for the passlock fix...instead of 2200ohm. I replaced it with a 2200 ohm and security light went off.

the car still stops cranking after 2 seconds... looking for HOW to confirm its the PCM ...how would I probe the PCM ?

Can I control that starter relay output from computer or see whether the computer is turning that signal off after 2 seconds...via and OBD2 tester ?

Thanks
Tim

 

[tjodork]

the car actually started the last 3 times.... have to wait and see

would love to know all the reasons the computer would turn off the starter output..... of course thats in the brains of the computer.....

 

[EaOutlaw]

To my knowledge melsg5 is correct, Passlock does not inetrupt your starter,

No reason to interrupt a starter relay when a thief can easily jump the solenoid at the starter with a screw driver.

The only reason that your PCM is involved with blocking current to the starter relay is if the neutral safety switch does not register being in park or neutral.

Look at the wiring diagram you posted, this diagram shows the limited involvement with the starter circuit.

Since your also having a problem with the key getting stuck in the ignition, a good guess would be something is preventing the neutral safety switch from engaging properly.

If you have a floor shifter I would suspect a coin or coins that fell into the floor shifter console or other garbage keeping the shifter from fully going into park.

this would be the easiest place to start and it wouldn't hurt to clean the console area and lubricate the shifter assembly even if you do not find a problem under there.

After you have done this and are still having problems let us know and we can assist further.

I am not saying this is your problem for sure, but if it was my car going by what you have written this is where I would start.

I am guessing you may find lots of treasures in the shifter area.

If not at least you had the opportunity to clean under there and lube the shifter assembly.

 

[tjodork]

Thanks, I will look at that console area and lubricate the shifter assembly ... Its quite possible I spilled some coffee in that area.....

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[tjodork]

so I've been trying to understand the wiring....I've included a picture of the wiring.... including the wiring to a pushbutton that the "mechanic" added so my car would start....i dont always need it ..but sometimes I crank and it stops after a few seconds

I mapped out the pins on the relay and I'm pretty sure I'm correct ...but there is no 12v on pin 87 coming from the 40A Fuse 5.
When I check pin 30, there IS 12v....is there any explanation for that ?
One of the ways I checked that i was correct is that I probed 85 and it was from Park Neutral switch.

Even though I don't see 12v on 87, the car will start.....

Anyone have any ideas ?

Thanks Tim

 

[EaOutlaw]

My guess at this point is that when your probing pin 87 from the 40 amp fuse and not finding power, it is possible your not getting a good connection to the test light or meter.

Check for power at both sides of the fuse while someone is cranking the starter over for you. make sure the power is not disappearing under cranking condition.

If the voltage is present at the fuse on both sides of the fuse follow the wire to the next connector in line ( trace the wire from the fuse to the starter relay ) inspect any connector.

Pretty much you cannot have power to pin 30 without it coming from pin 87 unless you are working from the wrong wiring diagram.

Have you checked the fuse labeled Crank the 10 amp fuse located under the hood in position 54 it supplies the PCM with voltage during cranking.

again check this fuse on both sides of the fuse while someone is cranking the starter over for you.

I am thinking if the ignition switch drops the power to this fuse intermittently the PCM will not function to allow cranking. if you do have power during cranking the PCM may have a bad driver circuit as the tech suggested.

If it does drop power you may just be looking at a worn ignition switch.

So double check the power from the 40 amp fuse and check the power from the 10 amp fuse and let us know what you find

 

[EaOutlaw]

I might add you didn't mention anything about the shifter, if it is in fact engaging into park or neutral properly.

Have you looked at the PNP ( Park neutral Position switch switch and connectors?

If all this is good and your still having problems with the key getting stuck in the ignition switch it may be a good idea to ensure the key and lock cylinder is working properly along with the actual ignition switch.

If your electronic ignition switch is malfunctioning it may not allow the cylinder to return to a position where the key can be removed.

here is a link to the ignition switch http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/C...ion-Starter-Switch/_/R-MPEKS6206SB_0306296341

I noticed on the Napa site they show a Passlock sensor which looks like it could possibly interfere with the lock cylinder rotation if it was malfunctioning.

if you look at the picture on the inside bore there appears to be a contact switch at the top. if this has fallen apart I can see how this could interfere the operation of the lock cylinder.

If this was my car and my problem to fix, I would remove this passlock sensor replace the ignition switch if needed and see if the sensor could be left out of the loop.

do you know why the passlock has malfunctioned on your car? is it from this sensor going bad? or was there another reason for it to be bypassed?

I forgot to ask are you getting power to pin 85 while cranking do you ever loose power to this pin while cranking and experience a no crank condition?

 

[tjodork]

Thanks for the info....i have some voltages to check tonight.....

the Park-Neutral switch works as I probed the relay socket pin and it changed to 12v when in P and N but was 0 volts otherwise.

My key has no issues going in and out. I have bypassed the passlock with a resister and have no SECURITY light issues.

Thanks again !!!

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[EaOutlaw]

I guess I have been online for way too long on this forum and others, For some reason I thought your car has a key that would get stuck in the ignition.

I must be way too tired.

Good luck I hope you get your car sorted out.

 

[tjodork]

So i rechecked the circuit and I did have the drawing wrong....I've updated it and uploaded....now things made more sense.
I finally determined that the wire from Fuse 54 (Crank fuse) is not making a good connection to the Connector 2 - pin 23 input to the PCM.
I measure 13K ohms and it should be almost 0.
See yellow line.
So I tried to take the Underhood Fuse Block off to see underneath for a wiring issue but I can't figure out how to take that Fuse Block off...
any ideas how to do that would be appreciated.

 

[EaOutlaw]

The three metal lugs in the power center, the center lug should have threads in it to secure the cover but all three I think should have Allen head bolts, if so carefully try and tighten them down, ( just check to see if any are loose ) do not over tighten!!

if any are loose just snug them up then retest the suspect connection. if the problem goes away remove these bolts and add a drop of blue lock-tite then torque the bolts to factory specs.

I do not know for sure if this is how your power center housing and connections are sandwiched to the harness, many GM vehicles have three or four large metal studs sticking above the relays and fuses so on those cars it is obvious.

The picture you provided was not clear enough to see if yours has Allen head bolts or not.

Try to not disturb this power center too much. hopefully the power center is set up like I am thinking and all you will find is a loose bolt. if not take better pictures of what you see.

 

[tjodork]

the center posts does have threads
the two side ones do not ...see pics
I tried to see if an allen wrench would do anything on the side ones but it doesn't grab
see pics

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[EaOutlaw]

it looks like the three separate harness connectors are bolted from the underside

If I had to guess based on the pictures, I would say disconnect the battery, disconnect the large cable going to the power center remove all four I think power center bolts at each corner, un clip the wiring harness straps that hold the harnesses in place and see if you can lift the power center to access the bottom shields and covers. the diagram I showed you in my last post is from GM parts direct I was hoping they would show the entire harness and better drawings.

the same thing goes the harness bolts may be loose causing some of or all of your issues yet until you get down to them it is just a guess.

I would suggest at this point to sign up for Alldata diy and research how this comes apart and also research any related TSBs

http://www.alldatadiy.com/?gclid=CIeEzomhysoCFcwWHwodatEMbw

 

[tjodork]

I found a good procedure for removing fuse block
http://www.justanswer.com/pontiac/6ihc3-pontiac-grand-se-remove-fuse-box-1999.html#re.v/491/

unfortunately ...it was 13K ohms at the back of the fuse block.

I started following the wires from the PCM (cutting black tape)
and the purple crank wire led off to some weird connector - see pictures....
is that some aftermarket something? or is that a Pontiac connector...
there is several wires from the PCM going to that connector...but it certainly doesn't show in the schematics...
btw... when my friend ran his advance diagnostics...it complained about a bunch of wiring issues.... i ignores since everything worked (well except for starting).

Can someone tell if the connector is legit ?

 

[EaOutlaw]

So far my gut feeling is that the wiring diagrams you have been working from are not correct for your year make and or model vehicle and or trim level. what is your source for these diagrams?

Looking at the second close up of this connector it looks like the blue plastic piece that holds the wires in place seems to be crooked ( possibly not allowing a good connection )

Does your car have any aftermarket equipment in it? Radio, Amplifiers, power programmers?

The resistance your chasing on the crank wire circuit doesn't seem to me to be the main issue, sure it needs to be repaired but do not get too bogged down on this just yet.

What seems to me to be weird is that the starter will crank for exactly 2 seconds then stop.

A bad connection normally will not act like this. I can see a bad connection causing intermittent no cranking or interrupted cranking but it is highly suspect that it does the same exact thing every time.

Do you know the history of this car? was it ever a rental car? a fleet car? a Police bait car?

Many cars that were used commercially have data logger GPS systems with a starter disable function.

It is possible although not likely that this is what your dealing with.

For now with the battery disconnected take the mystery connector apart from the factory harness, then see if you can get that blue plastic piece to seat better.

Then trace down the wires coming from this mystery connector and let us know where it leads.

If you can do so without taking the car too far apart.

If you cannot reasonable follow the wires just check and repair the blue wire retainer if necessary. then retry your OHM testing and cranking testing procedure.

let us know if the wiring on this connector matches the OEM harness in wire gauge and colors.

If the wires are smaller gauge and different colors it would support the suspicion that this is a aftermarket intruder.

If you have access to the correct wiring diagrams you should also have access to each and every OEM wiring connector and location on the car.

This would clear up any mystery that this connector presents at the moment.

the OEM manual should also have harness routing and connectors used.

 

[tjodork]

i bought the "manual" off of Ebay.
The car I bought used so i have no idea of the history.
I did check the opposite side of the connector for the purple wire and its still 13K ohms.

I tried to follow where the wires from the connector went and it goes up above where I can't see,
I'd love to take off the front dash....but it looks like the entire dash is 1 piece and looks a little daunting...
I did not see any "GPS" thing but who knows whats up there.
If I cant figure it out I will sign up for alldata

Thanks for your input !!