Top End noise

E

Evilcowboy420

New member
Joined
May 20, 2013
Messages
160
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Got another question lol

Ok the car has what sounds like a top end tick. It goes up and down with RPM's and is right in time with the engine. I did the old pulling spark wires on each cylinder to rule out spun bearing. So it is definitely coming from the top end. When I put my ear to the valve cover it sounds worse over cylinder 3.

So my question is if some of you can give me some ideas of what the tick could be?

My first inclination is a sticky lifter. But I have read several things about things that can make it sound like its a lifter and it isn't.

After I started the engine without the air cleaner I did listen and it almost sounded like it was close around the EGR valve. But I was assuming the lifter is just transferring sound through the intake.

Again any ideas is appreciated.
 
All I could find..............

http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/Article/548/engine_series__heads_up.aspx

My guesses..............

Broken Spring, broken valvetrain, bad lifter, engine too hot, too thick of a oil, worn rocker, clogged oil port. low oil pressure , etc , etc

In most cases on pushrod motors.............. worn lifter or rocker.

When my fan wasnt working and I was idleing, noise came from the cam cover when getting real hot.

People on the net said to run synethic in Pontiac 1.8 and 2.0 OHC's

I'm running Castrol Regular 10W40 which the article above says not to.
I run with no thermostat here in P.R. and the fan runs all the time. ( so it never gets halfway on the temp guage)

I never even looked under the top cover yet so I dont know what is in there.

Sorry cant be more help, Doug in P.R.:cool:
 
92 Sunbird LE said:
All I could find..............

http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/Article/548/engine_series__heads_up.aspx

My guesses..............

Broken Spring, broken valvetrain, bad lifter, engine too hot, too thick of a oil, worn rocker, clogged oil port. low oil pressure , etc , etc

In most cases on pushrod motors.............. worn lifter or rocker.

When my fan wasnt working and I was idleing, noise came from the cam cover when getting real hot.

People on the net said to run synethic in Pontiac 1.8 and 2.0 OHC's

I'm running Castrol Regular 10W40 which the article above says not to.
I run with no thermostat here in P.R. and the fan runs all the time. ( so it never gets halfway on the temp guage)

I never even looked under the top cover yet so I dont know what is in there.

Sorry cant be more help, Doug in P.R.:cool:
Click to expand...


Thanks Doug,

I used a screwdriver as a stethoscope and found the tick was coming from right above cylinder 3. I then took the valve cover off and nothing looked bad so I ever so gently pushed on the side of each of the lifters in that area and low and behold there was slight play in the one towards the front of the engine. I then pulled the distributor wire and with the cover off turned the engine and had a friend listen. He confirmed it did not move that much.

So I went and got a bottle of tranny fluid and poured it right onto the lifter to help unstick it. And after turning the engine it started to move a bit better. I only added a half quart to the engine and will let it clean for a bit and then change the oil.

The oil that is in it is Mobil one synthetic 10w30. It seems to have quieted the lifter a bit so I am hoping it does its job and gets the whole thing cleaned out. I am not leaving it in there too long just enough to help unstick it. There is oil all over and it seems to have decent oil pressure (this I dont know for sure since I don't have a guage) but oil being in all the ports kind of sugggests it is pumping just fine.

I have heard good stuff about Rislone for helping quiet an engine so I think I am gonna do a motor flush and then Rislone treat it and add a nice expensive synthetic. Oil is not one of those things I cheap out on just like I won't use Fram filters because I have seen a lot of oil filters opened up and the pleats in the Fram filters are complete junk. K&N don't make a filter for our cars (or at least not mine) so I am stuck using either Bosch or STP. I tend to sway towards Bosch since they are almost exact to Napa brand filters. I usually tell people if they have a Fram filter on their car to get rid of it and use a better one.

Anyways I don't know if anyone can answer this but should it be OK if I have to replace the lifter to just replace the head bolts without having to do the Head Gasket again since I will not be lifting the head off or would it be best to just replace the gasket again due to it being compressed already?

I already know anytime I have to pull the head bolts out it is not ok to reuse them since they are tty bolts. So I know I will have to rebuy them.

I guess that will teach me than to use the same lifters in a head rebuild. lol

It sucks but I know since we have OHC engines its not as big of a deal as an engine with pushrods. Springs looked nice and good btw.

But heres hoping the ATF trick works to clean things out and get it unstuck so I aint doing a big job again. Sucks but part of the territory when working on engines I guess. :p
 
Evilcowboy420 said:
Anyways I don't know if anyone can answer this but should it be OK if I have to replace the lifter to just replace the head bolts without having to do the Head Gasket again since I will not be lifting the head off or would it be best to just replace the gasket again due to it being compressed already?

I heard of people getting away with it and seen on TV a 22R Toyota motor it being done to ,but its your call.........................


I used that Permatex spray on copper gasket stuff on head gaskets before so I'd only be comfortable doing that with that on it.

Doug in P.R.:cool:
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
______________________________
 
DUDE! I work on motorcycle engines. I never reuse any "Crush" gasket. It fits tight once and works for a long time. Reuse it and you're asking for zero oil pressure in Peoria! Two-cycle is different. I have flat copper gaskets that I throw on the stove and cook till they glow and douse 'em in cold water. Use them for years! Better than new! I've got a couple of old Kawasakis with head gaskets that are more than an eighth of an inch thick. They will last forever!

I want so much to replace my head gaskets on my bird. Will make me feel way more confident on those 100 mph jaunts on the way to work. Coolant leak bad! Oil Leak... call AAA!
 
Yeah I didn't think it was OK to re-use it because the way I understand it the gasket is compressed with the torque sequence. After un-torquing the head bolts it's pretty much useless.

That really sucks this will be the 3rd Head Gasket I have changed on this car. First one was crap, Second one is on it now.

I did put a rislone treatment in it and changed the oil and filter it quieted the lifter a bit but still is ticking. I will probably get new lifters and rocker arms and H/G and bolt set. That should set me back a few bucks. Not to mention oil and coolant to put in it.

TM - It really is an easy job in comparison to some engines if you know what your doing. I can now take the head down and replace the gasket and put it back in about 90 minutes. Just don't do what the book says about removing the exhaust manifold and intake as an assembly. The intake does not need to be messed with just remove the exhaust manifold and let it hang down then take the alt, coolant box off and loosen the water pump and let all the belts hang from the crank balancer and the just lean the head up and back. If you want it off the car then you can finagle you arms to unbolt the intake and the head is free to go.

I made it a bit easier by removing the cam carrier first and all lifters and rocker arms to make it easier to handle the head. It really should only take like 4 hours unless your head is warped and your gonna lap it. The bitch is actually lining the exhaust manifold back up it fights you every step of the way. lol But learn from my mistake and buy lifters and rocker arms. Also when torquing the bolts forget what the paper work says tighter in 5 passes in a spiral to get it to 68-72 ft lbs this sould amount to 15 degree turns 5 times and it will be very very close and just tweak em to all match obviously the people who wrote the little paper that comes with the head bolts never worked on a GM 122 engine. Oh and don't forget those washers they are very easy to forget and they do not come with the bolts. You do not have to re torque after running the engine. Of course thats if you decide to do the H/G. But to give yourself piece of mind look for wetness on your plugs on cylinder 3 or 4 if your H/G is gonna fail that is where it will do it on this engine usually cylinder 4. The new H/G eliminates the water jacket that causes the H/G to blow so when you replace it it shouldn't blow again.

I'm still trying to figure out if there is a way to depress the rockers and lifters to somehow get them out without un doing the head bolts. So far I am coming up empty. Yay new H/G for me again. This thing is never gonna blow since I just keep changing it lol. Shitty design the cam carrier should be able to be removed without undoing the head bolts. Thats just plain stupid I'd like 5 minutes alone with the asshole engineer that designed this engine.
 
I splashed a little tranny fluid in mine this morning. Will run it till Tomorrow and change the oil. Should have done it already!!! Thanks!
 
Yeah TM change that oil lol I let mine go too about 1500 miles past 3000 because it was full synthetic. It usually lasts longer. After changing the oil I did not notice anything ugly in it so thank god for no metal shavings or crap like that.

Doug your a life saver. I will probably get a aluminum billet and grind one of these tools out. The guy should mass produce it because it is truly a useful too. I knew if I could somehow compress the spring I would be able to get the rocker out. I am a little concerned about the keepers and lash compensator's hopefully they don't pop out while trying to get at the rocker and lifter.

Well you just saved me a bunch of money on head bolts and a new gasket so thanks so much for that. I will just order the lifters and rockers and let you guys know how the whole thing turned out.

Oh and his cam and rocker looked ugly in those links didn't know a cam could actually shave off that much.
 
Glad to help...... when I posted the link a while back, didnt know there were multiple pages..........................Good luck on the fix....Doug in P.R.:cool:
 
The 3.1 ain't so easy to change head gaskets but I do love how it barks the tires when torque steer around a corner into traffic. Will be even better when I get all my suspension parts changed. Was in a grocery store picking up some lunch and the kid behind the register was pointing out my bird to one of the girls there. We ended up talking cars for ten minutes. Two girls and the boy. Teenagers love my car!!
______________________________
 
Yeah I did notice that the guy in the links seems to have ran across the same mention in the book about the special tool. The book mentions a tool that can depress all the springs at once but then makes no mention of the tool anymore.

TM - I would love a 3.1 if I ever see one I would probably grab it. Right now I am on a packard kick where I want to get a hold of a pretty decent 30's model Packard with an inline 6 or 8. I also get some head turns from my car and even had a girl saying she liked it because it was her first car. Also the little fiero formulas are starting to get my attention. lol
 
Ok just a little update. I decided I was gonna pull the valve cover and go over everything.

I finally found the culprit of the top end noise and seems to be fairly common since the guy in the links Doug provided had the same problem. Anyway it was a cam shaft lobe was worn out. It seems if failed at the same location as the guy in the links and it also did the same exact thing. There was a noticeable ridge in the lobe so gonna be pulling it tomorrow at the salvage yard to replace it. New one is $120 bucks.

So if anyone ever has top end noise that sounds like a lifter tick then it would be good to inspect the cam lobes. If they have a ridge on any one of them than the engine is going to tick.

This happened on the exhaust valve on cylinder 3. So gonna be pulling the rockers with it when I go get it.

But I am still not pulling head bolts the book says I do not have to pull it for this job so thats good I guess.

So anyone who just want to check it out pull the cover and check the pointed part of the lobes. I will get pics of the cam after it is out of the car and point out the bad lobe.

Go figure I guess I am returning the lifters since they are not bad. Here is hoping the used one is still good and not worn out either.

Anyhow I figured I would add this little update so everyone else knows to look at this if they hear a tick in the engine.
 
Evilcowboy420 said:
Right now I am on a packard kick where I want to get a hold of a pretty decent 30's model Packard with an inline 6 or 8.
Click to expand...

That would be cool! I've got an old flat head six Chrysler Marine in an old plywood boat. I love that engine! The boat ain't so hot. Just needs piles of work.
 
I wonder why that happens? ( same cam lobe on 2 separate year cars) My guess is overheat / head gasket?

Doug in P.R.
______________________________
 
TM - Plywood boat hell yeah. Just put some resin on it and paint it and you'd be on fire. lol

To be honest Doug I am almost certain what happened the previous guy let the head gasket go so long running peanut butter through the engine that the cam and rockers overheated and started wearing them down. When I pulled the cam today I found more than one rocker arm screwed up and scored and one lifter was not holding oil so it was collapsed. It was way worse than I thought. two of the lobes were also worn.

The one I pulled was in very good shape to be on a junk yard car. All the lobes are perfect. I also took the rocker arms from that car so the cam was riding on the same rockers it was use to.

Now the bitch is getting the arms back in. I can't find a place to make me that tool so I need to find a way to compress the springs. I was able to remove the arms by pushing down on the spring with wood and swiveling the arm to the side.

I am trying to make the tool but its hard to find metal thick enough to do it.

Any suggestions anyone??????????
 
Well I was gonna pull all the springs and compress them using the cable tie method and then re-install them and cut the ties but if it went wrong I could loose the valve into the cylinder or the keepers could go flying resulting in me being extremely pissed.

So what I did and I already know its not too good to do but I was out of options and stuck at the inlaws house so I needed to GTFO a little faster soooooooooo

I pulled the head bolts and did it that way. The only thing I think I had going for me was I did NOT do the final torque on the bolts after it heated and cooled. So the bolts did not go into plastic deformation the first torque. I was light on them because if you guys remember I broke a bolt and had to re-do it so I was pretty sure this set was OK. When I re-tightened them this time I did not feel any spongy ones so this tells me they didn't get stretched too much.

So after putting the cam back down and putting it back together I had a little trouble with the timing. Mainly just finding true TDC since the cam cover was gone but I found it OK.

But since I didn't remove the head the gasket stayed completely seated. I get mixed reviews on re-using but since mine was a complete dry install I didn't see the harm in reusing it.

But for insurance I am ordering new bolts and gasket in the event it blows. Sucks but at least I will have them on hand.

But after starting the engine and running it a bit nothing seemed off about it. The coolant looks right and the oil looks good and the engine sounds great. No more ticking. It honestly sounds beautiful. Oh and the top of the valve cover isn't as hot as it usually was my guess it all the friction in the cam carrier caused it to heat hotter than normal.

So I have read a bunch of people bitching about the 2.0 L top end ticking and some of them never solved it. If I ever see another one of these engines again ticking its ass off that would be the first place I would look.

But unless you have that tool or one that is fashioned to work then you will be SOL so if you ever hear a small tick just buy the tool from ebay so you have it on hand. This car is my daily driver which is why waiting on the tool was not an option for me. But I will probably take down the head again and re do the gasket and bolts just to make me feel better.

I just wished shit died all at one time so I didn't have to do this over and over. lol
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Back
Top