Valve Train Tap 2003 GAGT

[802]

Alright guys, heres the scoop. My 2003 Grand am GT has a loud ticking noise coming from the top half of the engine. After doing some google searches, and having a few automotive techs listen to it briefly they've all came to the conslusion that its probably a collapsed lifter. None of them made it seem like i needed to get this worked on ammeditly but i think it's a pretty big deal. Now if their diagnosis is correct, how does one replace or repair a lifter or multiple lifters in the 3.4l v6? I don't plan to do this myself, but i'd like to have an idea of what i'm looking at in terms of labor. Will they have to completly rebuild the top half or is the valve train somewhat accesable?


~un related to thread topic~

I've recently Installed an aftermarket headunit, along with aftermarket 4x6s and 6x9s. bypassed the stupid monsoon amp >

Sand Blased the dirty calipers and painted them red with some high temp paint. Turned out quite well

aaand some interior trim painting, Pics to come!

 

[802]

If you happen to like what i've done I wouldnt mind sharing a few links, providing pictures of the process and explaining the steps.


Now back to the origional topic !! I need some engine gurus to provide me with feed back. Would be greatly appretiated and i'd be certian to let you know how this all turns out!

 

[Zimgxp]

The intake and the valve covers have to come off to change the lifters. I bet Youtube has a video or two.

 

[richardgriese]

Why not try it yourself?

Remove the throttle body
Remove the upper intake manifold
Remove the fuel rail
Remove the lower intake
Remove the valve covers

There are other things in the way like spark plug wires and emission wires/hoses but all in all it is fairly easy to do and have a loot at. while you're there you can look at anything else to see how its doing like the gaskets.

Nice work on the paint - always like painted parts they clean so easily and look better

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[802]

Thanks for the feedback guys, exactaly what i was looking for. I have access to the tools and plenty of time, perhaps i will attempt this myself!

Between removing the appropriate wiring, and following the steps listed above, is this everything necessary to get me to the lifters?

 

[Kevlar]

If you do it yourself, you should probably pick up a good repair manual. OEM would be the most complete but aftermarket manuals will get you there too. You should also take some good pictures before and as you remove items, it's much better than a bread crumb trail in the forest! ;-)

 

[802]

Thanks for the tip Kevlar, I intended on numbering the wiring and taking a photo of it before the removal, along side taking photos of each part removed. I'll keep my bolts seperated in plastic cups and label them according to what they go to. This should make the reinstallation a breeze.

A good repair manual would probably provide me with torque specs and a nice procedure to follow, sounds like a good idea.

Next question;

should i replace all the lifters, and if so are they purchasable in sets? I can only find them for about 15-20$ a pop.

 

[Kevlar]

Next question;

should i replace all the lifters, and if so are they purchasable in sets? I can only find them for about 15-20$ a pop.

Wow, that's a great question! There are a couple different schools of thought;

1. Replace them all while you have everything opened up and accessible.

2. Only replace the one that has failed.

Number 1 sounds good but the reason given for number 2 (this is old school) is that the cam and lifters have been wearing together from the beginning. Installing a new lifter on a worn cam lobe and worn push rod for that matter, the new surfaces are thought to accelerate the wear on the older worn surfaces.

I don't know if that is still true with today's alloys.

I think if I were doing this, I'd just fix the one that's broken and leave the rest alone. You have to look at the whole picture, if you replace them all, now you have a fresh set of lifters on an old engine. Well, what if I replace the cam, push rods and rocker arms? Then there's the valve stems (and guides and seats ..) next thing you know, you're tearing down the entire engine and rebuilding it.

Then you have to rebuild the trans-axle, replace the CV joints, etc. etc.

(I'm getting a little crazy here, aren't I?) I'm sure you get the idea. You have a nice little older car that you'd like to enjoy driving a bit longer. The choice is yours, how far you want to go with it.

I wish you luck and watch out for 'the dropsies'!

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[802]

1. Replace them all while you have everything opened up and accessible.

2. Only replace the one that has failed.

Number 1 sounds good but the reason given for number 2 (this is old school) is that the cam and lifters have been wearing together from the beginning. Installing a new lifter on a worn cam lobe and worn push rod for that matter, the new surfaces are thought to accelerate the wear on the older worn surfaces.

I don't know if that is still true with today's alloys.

I think if I were doing this, I'd just fix the one that's broken and leave the rest alone. You have to look at the whole picture, if you replace them all, now you have a fresh set of lifters on an old engine. Well, what if I replace the cam, push rods and rocker arms? Then there's the valve stems (and guides and seats ..) next thing you know, you're tearing down the entire engine and rebuilding it.

Then you have to rebuild the trans-axle, replace the CV joints, etc. etc.

(I'm getting a little crazy here, aren't I?) I'm sure you get the idea. You have a nice little older car that you'd like to enjoy driving a bit longer. The choice is yours, how far you want to go with it.

I wish you luck and watch out for 'the dropsies'!

Spot on reply! Seems to me like i'd be better off with just replacing the damaged lifters, wouldn't want to open pandora's box

Now how would i go about identifying the damaged lifters? Tried using a home made steathascope but i couldnt pinpoint the noise. Should i have a trained ear locate the problem before i taker' apart, or will it be farily obvious once i've made it to the valve train?

 

[Kevlar]

I'm assuming these are hydraulic lifters? If so, it's possible that they pump up while running and may settle when oil pressure is nil.

I would first do a thorough compression test, do a couple of passes at this and check your notes. You should see a lower read on the cylinders with weak lifters.

I would then see if the stethoscope confirms, though I wouldn't put too much stock in that.

In the old days, with V-8's in large engine compartments and minimal wires and hoses, we could pull the valve covers, run the engine at idle, shut it off and then check for sloppy rocker arms before the lifters loose pressure. Not sure if that is doable. I just looked at my old 96 3.1L and I might do that with the front cover but the back is near impossible. Yours may be tougher.

The compression tests will tell you the most.

I just had a horrible thought (sorry) .... are you sure it's lifters and not a worn cam lobe or two?

 

[richardgriese]

^^ that would be bad!. Never know till you get in there. once you're down that far in the engine (ie to block) you can have a look. It is not much to rebuild the top part (heads still on at this point)

 

[802]

I'm assuming these are hydraulic lifters? If so, it's possible that they pump up while running and may settle when oil pressure is nil.

I would first do a thorough compression test, do a couple of passes at this and check your notes. You should see a lower read on the cylinders with weak lifters.

I would then see if the stethoscope confirms, though I wouldn't put too much stock in that.

In the old days, with V-8's in large engine compartments and minimal wires and hoses, we could pull the valve covers, run the engine at idle, shut it off and then check for sloppy rocker arms before the lifters loose pressure. Not sure if that is doable. I just looked at my old 96 3.1L and I might do that with the front cover but the back is near impossible. Yours may be tougher.

The compression tests will tell you the most.

I just had a horrible thought (sorry) .... are you sure it's lifters and not a worn cam lobe or two?

Yes they are hydraulic roller lifters, The problem was unnoticed when i first purchased the vehicle, and shortly came into play after changing the oil. I have a gut feeling that the new oil may have loosend deposits inside the engine, clogging the hydraulic lifter, leaving it un able to pump up.

I Seafoamed the engine approx 300 miles ago in attempt to free up the noisy lifter. it seemed to quiet down a bit but lately it's just as bad if not worse.

Doing a compression test to locate the failing lifter seems like a solid idea, I don't have a compression gauge but perhaps i can borrow one from a buddy.


Having not had the oppertunity to take the engine apart yet, i cant say for sure that is not a worn cam lobe. I really hope its just a failing lifter.

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[Kevlar]

When we were dealing with rear wheel drives with engines inline, it wasn't too hard to remove the radiator and pull the cam out the front of the engine and pop a new one in. What kind of chore is it on our transverse V-6's?

 

[Kevlar]

Having not had the oppertunity to take the engine apart yet, i cant say for sure that is not a worn cam lobe. I really hope its just a failing lifter.

I hope so too! Good luck with this, looking forward to hearing how it all shakes out!

 

[Kevlar]

Doing a compression test to locate the failing lifter seems like a solid idea, I don't have a compression gauge but perhaps i can borrow one from a buddy.

You can buy one for as low a $30+. Something to consider. I've used mine more than enough through the years to make it worth the cost.

 

[richardgriese]

You can buy one or rent it at the local store. Also a good time to clean fuel injectors and change spark plugs if it is due!

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[802]

I'm actually looking foward to this, seems like a great oppertunity to learn a thing or two about these engines, save myself a buck and paint up them intake manifolds! Your feedback has got me on the right direction i cant thank you guys enough!


Does the procedure call for any uncommon tools that you can think of?

 

[richardgriese]

Nope.
Screw driver
3/8 driver ratchet
a few extensions
a socket set
a wrench set
Torque wrench (s) 1 ft lb 1 inch lb

Pretty standard things to have - I always recommend to have a can of PB blaster and a breaker bar too

 

[Kevlar]

Does the procedure call for any uncommon tools that you can think of?

That's one of the areas where a service manual may be very useful. My GA is a 96 with a 3.1L. It may be sufficiently different from yours to include unique specialty tools and procedures.

If you have the time, patience, knowledge, physical abilities and a nice enclosed garage (the latter is a great luxury, I've spent many a cold, miserable hour wrenching on cars out in the elements!) it can be a very satisfying and rewarding experience!

 

[Kevlar]

I have to say, one of my favorite things about projects like these and house projects is the new, specialty tools I 'have' to buy to get them done.

Many a time I've 'had' to tell the wife; "Honey, I have to get this tool. I can't do this job without it."

It also doesn't hurt, that as a construction worker, I can write off most any tool that I can prove useful in the trade!